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I agree. We use this stuff in daily life. Very soon, the arguments for religion will be made and, unless the counter case is already given, it won't be. If there is a sound case to be made for religion - and there is a case of sorts - it should not fear the other side being put. If it is so determined that the alternatives should be kept under wraps it must be very much afraid that its case really doesn't stand up too well to question.
It's not a subjective judgement call that telling a kid "There are no monsters under your bed" can ease their mind when they're afraid of exactly that.
You are still doing it. Making me point for me. Which is that you are failing utterly to show a single difference between the statements except that you personally find one statement to be good parenting, but not the other one. You are now just writing post after post proving my point.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
And when are you going to get around to telling us exactly what's to be gained from indoctrinating a child to be atheist?
When are you going to get around to realizing that I am not going to defend points I did not personally make.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
But what you fail to understand
Not agreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you. No matter how much you want to pretend otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Incorrect. To say that these statements are the same, you would have to provide at least a claim for a benefit
I said the STATEMENTS are the same. The effects of them, or any benefit you might want to imagine for them, is a subject change.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
And calling you out on statements you have in fact made is not derailing
But inventing statements I have not made: Is.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
How is asking you to make good your claim that these statements are the same, going off on a tangent?
They are the same. The statement "There is no god" and the statement "There are no monsters under beds" are _exactly_ the same in terms of argument, evidence, data and reasoning.
The only difference would be if the kid couldn't sleep at night because of monsters under the bed. Then it is required for peace of mind to assure kid that there are not.
The God thing is more of evaluating a claim (unless the god -claim has caused fright) and then 'I don't believe there is a God.' and explaining why, particularly if the child actually asks (as was the case here) is absolutely the justified response and 'indoctrination' is not what is going on at all.
The only difference would be if the kid couldn't sleep at night because of monsters under the bed. Then it is required for peace of mind to assure kid that there are not.
The God thing is more of evaluating a claim (unless the god -claim has caused fright) and then 'I don't believe there is a God.' and explaining why, particularly if the child actually asks (as was the case here) is absolutely the justified response and 'indoctrination' is not what is going on at all.
Thank you! As I said before, I have no problem with parents telling their kids the truth about their beliefs or lack thereof. I will not hesitate to tell my son I don't believe in a god when he asks. Heck, I may even volunteer that information, who knows!? But I will not pass this off as fact or anything he should take for granted. I will make sure he understands that this is just how I reason, not necessarily how it is (i.e., that he is free to choose for himself on the matter).
Otherwise, no, I would not be any better than a Christian fundamentalist parent.
as i said i will not teach my kids to believe but will expose them to all faith systems. and will tell them that i and so will their mother tell them they are stories and no more . that sadly cause more problems than they are worth,
The only difference would be if the kid couldn't sleep at night because of monsters under the bed. Then it is required for peace of mind to assure kid that there are not.
The God thing is more of evaluating a claim (unless the god -claim has caused fright) and then 'I don't believe there is a God.' and explaining why, particularly if the child actually asks (as was the case here) is absolutely the justified response and 'indoctrination' is not what is going on at all.
And even though I would try to not be dogmatic about the existence of God, if for nothing else than to teach them that the world is full of unknowns and unknowables, I would strongly and almost dogmatically tell them that if there is a God I am sure he will not send them to Hell. If we have kids, I know this will be an issue with my family, and I will not tolerate hell threat or the guilt of original sin being loaded on any child of mine. I know first hand the damage it does, and if it requires stretching the limits of my empirical knowledge to protect a young mind until such time as they can make their own choice, so be it.
The only difference would be if the kid couldn't sleep at night because of monsters under the bed. Then it is required for peace of mind to assure kid that there are not.
And as I pointed out to our flapping neighbour this is a subjective decision and it not an actual difference in the statements being made.
My original point back in post #143 was a counter to the argument "I hope I never tell my son point blank "God is not real" because, well, I do not know that.". And I merely pointed out that if this is the criteria the poster is operating on then he does not "know" there is not monsters under the bed either.
At which point he turned into "Captain Caveat" (apologies to whoever I stole that phrase off, I know I read it somewhere but do not now remember from who) going on about allowing his son to sleep at night.
But I would go one step further there. I find liking one statement because it helps a kid sleep at night more than another because it only SOMETIMES helps a kid sleep better at night (depending on which god the kid is thinking about as some of them are likely to keep you from sleeping even more than monsters under the bed) is a very narrow and short sighted view. In the long sighted view both fears and ideas come from the same forms of fallacious reasoning. Telling a kid there is no monster under the bed and explaining why IS telling a kid there is no god because the explanations are _exactly the same_ too.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
But I will not pass this off as fact or anything he should take for granted.
Yet you will pass the non existence of monsters under his bed off as fact. Which just highlights the arbitrary double standard you have been operating under that I highlighted since post #143 making you slightly more of a theistic apologist than you seem to notice in the mirror.
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Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
Otherwise, no, I would not be any better than a Christian fundamentalist parent.
Except you would be. Because one is making a judgement and reality statement in the face of the current state of the evidence. The other is selling a fantasy lie based on nothing at all. I know which one I think is worse.
Thank you! As I said before, I have no problem with parents telling their kids the truth about their beliefs or lack thereof. I will not hesitate to tell my son I don't believe in a god when he asks. Heck, I may even volunteer that information, who knows!? But I will not pass this off as fact or anything he should take for granted. I will make sure he understands that this is just how I reason, not necessarily how it is (i.e., that he is free to choose for himself on the matter).
Otherwise, no, I would not be any better than a Christian fundamentalist parent.
Yes, I can see that is sound.
Of course, one has to bear in mind that many unbelieving parents are not what I call 'thinking atheists'. They have not thought about this stuff; they just do no believe and will say if asked 'There is no God', just as we say there is no Santa, no fairies, fiery dragons or leprechauns.
I actually had a chat with one on a former forum and he saw that 'There is no God' is in fact not a strictly logical claim - as theists make a big deal of pointing out. But I saw that it was nothing more than an expression of disbelief of the 'No Santa' kind when strictly speaking we cannot prove there is no Santa. It just does not seem reasonable and the stories do not make sense.
Thus 'There is no God' is actually reasonable and is nothing to do with atheist fundamentalism or indoctrinating the kids.
In fact the eight -year old son of a friend asked me 'There isn't really any Santa, is there?' Of course I said 'No.' That is not disbelieving fundamentalism or indoctrination. Of course, if he'd have asked me about God, I would have been more cautious in the response, but then I am a 'thinking' atheist.
Bet the OP would have little problem agreeing to tell his kids only that, in his opinion, god does not exist if all believers would do the same when their kids ask them the same thing.
And even though I would try to not be dogmatic about the existence of God, if for nothing else than to teach them that the world is full of unknowns and unknowables, I would strongly and almost dogmatically tell them that if there is a God I am sure he will not send them to Hell. If we have kids, I know this will be an issue with my family, and I will not tolerate hell threat or the guilt of original sin being loaded on any child of mine. I know first hand the damage it does, and if it requires stretching the limits of my empirical knowledge to protect a young mind until such time as they can make their own choice, so be it.
-NoCapo
Are you familiar with the debate going on among Christians as we speak, as to whether or not there is even a such place as Hell? I happened upon one of the debates on the Christianity board something like a year ago; it was an interesting read.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
My original point back in post #143 was a counter to the argument "I hope I never tell my son point blank "God is not real" because, well, I do not know that.". And I merely pointed out that if this is the criteria the poster is operating on then he does not "know" there is not monsters under the bed either.
And I conceded to that point, and even quite recently reiterated that in terms of a lack of evidence, these statements ("There are no monsters under your bed" vs. "There is no god") most certainly do share that similarity. However, to say they are the same in every way is ridiculous. One has a very clear and honorable purpose (helping your child sleep better) and the other really does seem to be an attempt to close the doors to alternative views for your child (aka indoctrination).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Yet you will pass the non existence of monsters under his bed off as fact. Which just highlights the arbitrary double standard you have been operating under that I highlighted since post #143 making you slightly more of a theistic apologist than you seem to notice in the mirror.
Oh, please. I told you right from the beginning, I am a parent first. That means I more than welcome exceptions to any given rule. Whatever is best for my child. Him sleeping peacefully at night? Good. Me closing his mind from any and all things theistic? Bad. Go back to repeating that both statements lack evidence (as if we both haven't already established that).
Oh, and I should think the more important question when/if your child finds it difficult to sleep for fear that a deity is going to get them would be, "Just who have you been talking to, that has seen to it that you automatically equate a god with something that's trying to kill, kidnap, or eat you?"
How bout say this. Play on both questions in a similar fashion (since all questions have to be dealt with the exact same way, to make you happy). Say "I don't think there's a god/monster under your bed. But if there is, I don't think he/it is anything to be afraid of." Fair enough?
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