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Now Vizio has gone with the "holy spirit secret decoder" in which one has to have "faith" in order to understand what the bible says.
This puts the non believer in the untenable position of having to argue the silly notion of "faith". When it comes to the bible, "faith" for the believer means ignoring, avoiding, rationalizing, or being ignorant of the portions of the Bible that non believers cannot square with.
The Reverend Real of the Church of Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll (aka Clinton Wiles) says it best. "Being right makes more sense than believing right."
I'm not really sure I said anything about any kind of special decoder ring or anything like that. I recognize that many atheists have an academic knowledge of the Bible. One atheist I worked with told me she was going to take a "Bible as literature" class. She approached it from a literary viewpoint. That view helped her grasp the major events of the Bible, but didn't emphasize the points that I would make to my congregants -- that the entire Bible is about Jesus.
That view helped her grasp the major events of the Bible, but didn't emphasize the points that I would make to my congregants -- that the entire Bible is about Jesus.
To be fair, that isn't knowledge of the Bible, that is knowledge of your theology...
I don't see anything wrong with owning a bible or some other religious work if your an atheist. There are some interesting passages contained within it. On a similar note, I have no issue listening to say, Mozarts' Requiem mass and enjoying the beauty of it. In all honesty I will even attend a church service with somebody, lightning isn't gonna strike or cause an on the spot conversion.
I agree with some of the things that bother your friend, I am equally disgusted and baffled that these all powerful deities sit up there eating bon bons while people suffer horribly, but I keep it to myself or I can come here and vent.
I can relate to what nocapo said and how a believer has to rationalize nonbelief in a person formerly of faith. My own mother called her priest who in turn called me. All concerned felt like I was in crisis when in reality it was liberation to be free from all this religious nonsense that had been weighing me down all this time. A "test" is another one I get a lot and they reference Job from the bible. /sigh.
Edit: if all else fails they blame satan.
I am mostly around catholics of roman or byzantine rites that are weak on scripture and theology, they don't stay with those arguments for long and go for the drama and guilt instead.
I'm an agnostic. I don't really understand either side of the situation. I don't get the "I am absolutely positive that god doesn't exist" and I don't understand the "I am absolutely positive that god does exist." I, on the other hand, am absolutely positive that there is "something" going on other than genes and evolution. What is that "something?" No idea. Might be god. Might be aliens from another planet. Might be some kind of borg and we're all unwitting pod-people.
As for the bible, I equate that with religion, and not belief in god. I feel the two are mutually exclusive. You don't need to believe in god to accept the bible as a book of moral lessons. And you don't need to adhere in any specific dogma or religion in order to believe in god.
I find it pretty arrogant and ignorant of anyone who equates the two as a necessary combination. If you think belief in god means following the christian faith, then you haven't really paid much attention to whatever it is you claim you know about god. Or, the only thing you know, is what someone told you about what they read in a book, and your understanding is pretty myopic.
There are as many "forms" of god as there are people who believe in it. Including a plurality that has nothing to do with the trinity. I especially enjoy reading about the gods of the BhagavaGhita, especially the illuminated texts - some of them are absolutely gorgeous and the stories themselves are full of all the things great novels contain - love, conflict, blood, gore, sex, intrigue, fantastic creatures, magic.
The stories of the Old Testament are also fantastical and fun to read. They're even more fun to have recited to you by a Rabbi who first recites the Hebrew and then translates it, and then interprets the translation. And better still, to have heard different interpretations of the same text by different rabbis.
You really don't need to believe in god to appreciate the stories at face value, as fantastical magickal imaginative fiction. Or even if you don't rule out the possibility that it's historic fiction. And better still, fiction that contains within it little nuggets of wisdom. Things like - don't **** off your neighbor or your spouse. Things like - killing people is a bad thing, so maybe try not to do that mmmkay? Or hey - how about - if someone gives you the run of their house for an indefinite vacation, and asks only that you leave their apple tree alone, how about - have a little respect for the wishes of your host, and don't be picking from that apple tree.
I'd be happy with that. There is a case to be made for a sortgod or 'something more', the god of all religions - or none; but it isn't one that convinces me, so I remain agnostically reserving of belief about that.
I am a lot more sure about the specific god of the Bible. I can say with a great degree of confidence that the god described in the Bible does not exist.
I'd be happy with that. There is a case to be made for a sortgod or 'something more', the god of all religions - or none; but it isn't one that convinces me, so I remain agnostically reserving of belief about that.
I am a lot more sure about the specific god of the Bible. I can say with a great degree of confidence that the god described in the Bible does not exist.
Well see, that's the thing. That god might very well exist, but people wrote the bible - not a god. And people will interpret things to suit themselves, and the other people they want to influence. So maybe that ten commandments dood really did exist, but maybe the story didn't go down how the bible claims it went down. Maybe it wasn't a burning bush. Maybe it was just a fog, a cloud in the atmosphere on a mountain with a bunch of shrubbery - with the sun rays jetting through it, making it look like it was a fire surrounding a bush. And maybe god was a voice in Moses' head directing him to some broken stones that fell off a cliff-side, that had marks in it, that were the inspiration for Moses to create a new written language that didn't previously exist.
Maybe Noah's flood was more like - a really bad flood, and Noah had a raft and didn't have enough room on it for all his flock so he only brought a male and female of each and a few birds eggs. And maybe his name was Myron but Noah sounds more romantic
When you get into that many 'maybes' (aside what the evidence tells us about whether the Bible stories are even possibly true) it is perhaps better to treat it as we do a lot of old book - a lot of mythology, but perhaps with some historical truth behind it.
Where that leaves us is agnostic, which is another way of saying we don't build our lives around belief in any particular god.
I'm an agnostic. I don't really understand either side of the situation. I don't get the "I am absolutely positive that god doesn't exist" and I don't understand the "I am absolutely positive that god does exist." I, on the other hand, am absolutely positive that there is "something" going on other than genes and evolution. What is that "something?" No idea. Might be god. Might be aliens from another planet. Might be some kind of borg and we're all unwitting pod-people.
As for the bible, I equate that with religion, and not belief in god. I feel the two are mutually exclusive. You don't need to believe in god to accept the bible as a book of moral lessons. And you don't need to adhere in any specific dogma or religion in order to believe in god.
I find it pretty arrogant and ignorant of anyone who equates the two as a necessary combination. If you think belief in god means following the christian faith, then you haven't really paid much attention to whatever it is you claim you know about god. Or, the only thing you know, is what someone told you about what they read in a book, and your understanding is pretty myopic.
There are as many "forms" of god as there are people who believe in it. Including a plurality that has nothing to do with the trinity. I especially enjoy reading about the gods of the BhagavaGhita, especially the illuminated texts - some of them are absolutely gorgeous and the stories themselves are full of all the things great novels contain - love, conflict, blood, gore, sex, intrigue, fantastic creatures, magic.
The stories of the Old Testament are also fantastical and fun to read. They're even more fun to have recited to you by a Rabbi who first recites the Hebrew and then translates it, and then interprets the translation. And better still, to have heard different interpretations of the same text by different rabbis.
You really don't need to believe in god to appreciate the stories at face value, as fantastical magickal imaginative fiction. Or even if you don't rule out the possibility that it's historic fiction. And better still, fiction that contains within it little nuggets of wisdom. Things like - don't **** off your neighbor or your spouse. Things like - killing people is a bad thing, so maybe try not to do that mmmkay? Or hey - how about - if someone gives you the run of their house for an indefinite vacation, and asks only that you leave their apple tree alone, how about - have a little respect for the wishes of your host, and don't be picking from that apple tree.
You have written a very good post. It hits on the major problem between Religion, and God.
Religions claim to teach Gods word from the Bible. Religious leaders take on the appearance of representing God…but are they?
If those who listen to the teachers examine, and test the words of the teacher…they will come to know if it is truth, or a bold face lie.
Many religions teach 75% truth. It is the other 25% that leads the listener away from truth, and God.
Aim a rocket at the moon, and be just .5% of course…what will be the result?
"Hell Fire, and Brimstone"…"You can go to Heaven, or Hell." Are these things true? If so, the Bible would support these teachings. The truth is, if those who listen to religious teachers, examine the Bible, they would come to understand…these teachings are bold face lies.
Is there not one religion that is true? Here is an easy way to test them;
1) Make a list of all religions.
2) Make a list of major false doctrines.
3) If a religion has one, or more false major doctrines…cross it off, it is a false religion.
There are thousands of religions, and it would seem like this process would take a life time. It will not. It will just take a matter of a few hours. How will one know what major doctrine are false? Can the Bible itself be proven to be true, or must one have blind faith?
These are not questions for the lazy. The truth is like gold. It takes labor to extract it from the ground.
You have written a very good post. It hits on the major problem between Religion, and God.
Religions claim to teach Gods word from the Bible. Religious leaders take on the appearance of representing God…but are they?
If those who listen to the teachers examine, and test the words of the teacher…they will come to know if it is truth, or a bold face lie.
Many religions teach 75% truth. It is the other 25% that leads the listener away from truth, and God.
Aim a rocket at the moon, and be just .5% of course…what will be the result?
"Hell Fire, and Brimstone"…"You can go to Heaven, or Hell." Are these things true? If so, the Bible would support these teachings. The truth is, if those who listen to religious teachers, examine the Bible, they would come to understand…these teachings are bold face lies.
Is there not one religion that is true? Here is an easy way to test them;
1) Make a list of all religions.
2) Make a list of major false doctrines.
3) If a religion has one, or more false major doctrines…cross it off, it is a false religion.
There are thousands of religions, and it would seem like this process would take a life time. It will not. It will just take a matter of a few hours. How will one know what major doctrine are false? Can the Bible itself be proven to be true, or must one have blind faith?
These are not questions for the lazy. The truth is like gold. It takes labor to extract it from the ground.
A remarkable post. And I am with it until we get to 'false doctrine'. Just how can we, as humans, decide what doctrine is false or not? I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm asking how do we do it? I can imagine that false doctrine can be eliminated from the Bible -religions by seeing whether it fits scripture, but how can we tell the doctine of one religion false compared with another? Judaism doesn't have the NT, so you can't judge it by that. If you say we should, then the NT should be judged by the Quran.
I don't see how this is going to work. I do hope it isn't going to be 'what works for you' propped up with some vaguely relevant Bible -quotes.
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