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I don't mean to pry, but do you recall what is said to quickly rationalize things? I've never had a similar conversation, so I'm curious to know what the response is when you tell believers that you've let go of your faith. That is, how do they rationalize it?
Let me preface this by saying that most of my interactions with believers fall decidedly on the non-Wesleyan, non-Semi-Pelagian end of the doctrinal continuum. It ranges form the soft Calvinism, of "once saved always saved" to full bore Reformed theology. I have no doubt that believers on the other end of the spectrum would not have the same issue with my lack of belief, as they belief you can fall away and lose your salvation.
First comes the question, "how do you know you were saved?" They are looking for any hint that they can latch on to in order to say, "Oh, that's the problem! You were never saved in the first place!" If you explain, "I prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus into my heart." the response might be that you have to really mean it, or it doesn't count. Or if you talk about your participation in church and your zeal for God, you may get quoted the passage about "didn't I cast out demon's in your name?" and being told "depart from me, I never knew you!" If you can finally explain your experience in terms that don't leave them wiggle room to discount, usually it is a sad shake of the head as they tell you that they don't understand what my experience was, but that according to scripture, if I "went out from among" them it was because I "was not of" them, and that there is no way around it, I was lying to myself the whole time.
This is usually followed up by an invitation to pray with them right now and accept Jesus as my savior, because clearly I didn't do it right the first time. Every once in a while someone will tell me that I am still saved even though I don't believe, and God will "draw me back to him" before the end, but that is decidedly in the minority. Most end up having to choose between me lying about my experience or their interpretation of the Bible being faulty, so they go for option 1.
There is one more option, which gets hinted at by folks with a more Calvinistic outlook, but is rarely vocalised because even if they believe it to be true, it is really offensive and nasty. That is that no matter that I spend 20 year fervently seeking God, studying the Bible, literally on my knees crying out to God, I was and am a vessel made for destruction. God made me, never intending to save me, and thus no matter how hard I wanted to follow God, no matter how much I wanted to be His, it was all useless because God in his foreknowledge had decided that he didn't want me, and that he would not die for me. It is consistent with reformed theology, but is not a very constructive thing to say, even if you believe it...
Let me preface this by saying that most of my interactions with believers fall decidedly on the non-Wesleyan, non-Semi-Pelagian end of the doctrinal continuum. It ranges form the soft Calvinism, of "once saved always saved" to full bore Reformed theology. I have no doubt that believers on the other end of the spectrum would not have the same issue with my lack of belief, as they belief you can fall away and lose your salvation.
First comes the question, "how do you know you were saved?" They are looking for any hint that they can latch on to in order to say, "Oh, that's the problem! You were never saved in the first place!" If you explain, "I prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus into my heart." the response might be that you have to really mean it, or it doesn't count. Or if you talk about your participation in church and your zeal for God, you may get quoted the passage about "didn't I cast out demon's in your name?" and being told "depart from me, I never knew you!" If you can finally explain your experience in terms that don't leave them wiggle room to discount, usually it is a sad shake of the head as they tell you that they don't understand what my experience was, but that according to scripture, if I "went out from among" them it was because I "was not of" them, and that there is no way around it, I was lying to myself the whole time.
This is usually followed up by an invitation to pray with them right now and accept Jesus as my savior, because clearly I didn't do it right the first time. Every once in a while someone will tell me that I am still saved even though I don't believe, and God will "draw me back to him" before the end, but that is decidedly in the minority. Most end up having to choose between me lying about my experience or their interpretation of the Bible being faulty, so they go for option 1.
There is one more option, which gets hinted at by folks with a more Calvinistic outlook, but is rarely vocalised because even if they believe it to be true, it is really offensive and nasty. That is that no matter that I spend 20 year fervently seeking God, studying the Bible, literally on my knees crying out to God, I was and am a vessel made for destruction. God made me, never intending to save me, and thus no matter how hard I wanted to follow God, no matter how much I wanted to be His, it was all useless because God in his foreknowledge had decided that he didn't want me, and that he would not die for me. It is consistent with reformed theology, but is not a very constructive thing to say, even if you believe it...
-NoCapo
Wow. So from your experience, they basically throw you under the bus. That's unfortunate, and it seems like it would be an uncomfortable conversation. Thank you for explaining.
I think Vizio has me pegged correctly that my knowledge of Christianity is academic, although I've talked to many practitioners over the years. But I'm ignorant about the day-to-day practices of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, meaning what their message is and how they deliver it.
Although I'm not easily shocked, I am shocked by some of the stories I've read in these threads about how family and friends reacted when a person announced they no longer believed. I couldn't imagine disowning my son or daughter because they lost their faith. To me, that is absolutely the most ridiculous, harsh, and cruel thing I've read about in a while. I simply don't understand the power and draw of faith.
I also don't understand the position of the Calvinist Reformed Theology that you explained. As you said:
"God made me, never intending to save me, and thus no matter how hard I wanted to follow God, no matter how much I wanted to be His, it was all useless because God in his foreknowledge had decided that he didn't want me, and that he would not die for me." This idea is hard to grasp. It seems very unfair.
Last edited by Mantronix4204; 06-10-2014 at 05:49 PM..
"God made me, never intending to save me, and thus no matter how hard I wanted to follow God, no matter how much I wanted to be His, it was all useless because God in his foreknowledge had decided that he didn't want me, and that he would not die for me." This idea is hard to grasp. It seems very unfair.
Well, it has a lot of nuance that I am sort of skipping, but generally it can be summed up in the TULIP acronym:
Total Depravity - Becasue of Adam's sin, no action on man's part is good. Even the good things you do are bad. Unconditional Election - God chooses who will be saved entirely of his own will, it has nothing to do with you Limited Atonement - Christ only died for the elect, the chosen. Irresistible Grace - If God has chosen you, you will be saved Perseverance of the Saints - If you are saved, you cannot be unsaved.
This theology places a high value on God's sovereignty. He makes all the choices, and owes us nothing. Anything we get from him is a gift, because we are incapable of earning it. You can't lose your salvation, because you didn't earn it in the first place. Conversely if you fall away, then you were never saved to start with, because if you were you couldn't leave.
This is sort of the most extreme variation. when I was a Southern Baptist we were pretty uncomfortable U,L, and I, but we were solid 2 pointers. Reformed Baptists, conservative Presbyterians, and other calvinist groups hold to all of the points.
What you have to understand is generally "not of the elect" is reserved for "them", other people, not your own family or people in your church, and certainly not yourself. You are supposed to rest in the knowledge that God saved you in spite of yourself. Only, if you leave the faith, that puts you in the "them" camp...
Well, it has a lot of nuance that I am sort of skipping, but generally it can be summed up in the TULIP acronym:
Total Depravity - Becasue of Adam's sin, no action on man's part is good. Even the good things you do are bad. Unconditional Election - God chooses who will be saved entirely of his own will, it has nothing to do with you Limited Atonement - Christ only died for the elect, the chosen. Irresistible Grace - If God has chosen you, you will be saved Perseverance of the Saints - If you are saved, you cannot be unsaved.
This theology places a high value on God's sovereignty. He makes all the choices, and owes us nothing. Anything we get from him is a gift, because we are incapable of earning it. You can't lose your salvation, because you didn't earn it in the first place. Conversely if you fall away, then you were never saved to start with, because if you were you couldn't leave.
This is sort of the most extreme variation. when I was a Southern Baptist we were pretty uncomfortable U,L, and I, but we were solid 2 pointers. Reformed Baptists, conservative Presbyterians, and other calvinist groups hold to all of the points.
What you have to understand is generally "not of the elect" is reserved for "them", other people, not your own family or people in your church, and certainly not yourself. You are supposed to rest in the knowledge that God saved you in spite of yourself. Only, if you leave the faith, that puts you in the "them" camp...
-NoCapo
As I think about the TULIP system and the more extreme variations, and I put myself in their shoes, I immediately feel a sense of anxiety that I might not be saved. I'm not trying to be funny when I ask - do you know or have you seen that members of the more extreme variations suffer anxiety about whether they're saved? More so than just everyday, normal anxiety? Is there a chronic worry?
As I think about the TULIP system and the more extreme variations, and I put myself in their shoes, I immediately feel a sense of anxiety that I might not be saved. I'm not trying to be funny when I ask - do you know or have you seen that members of the more extreme variations suffer anxiety about whether they're saved? More so than just everyday, normal anxiety? Is there a chronic worry?
I experienced that fear, but I think it depends on an individual's personality. Some feel very confident in their salvation, others are always concerned that it might not have "taken". In a broader sense the sense of guilt, shame, and self loathing that is implicit in the concept of original sin, or total depravity was very debilitating for me. To really internalize that the best you can ever hope to do is no better than used menstrual cloths ( filthy rags in the King James) can really mess you up.
In one sense, there is more security in a Calvinist outlook, because you cannot lose your salvation by messing up. If you have been saved, it is permanent. A Wesleyan or Semi-Pelagianist outlook would say that if you sin sufficiently or depart from correct doctrine you can lose your salvation. This is part of a different sort of worry that I ran into in more pentecostal circles. You see this more in the 'holiness' churches.
As I think about the TULIP system and the more extreme variations, and I put myself in their shoes, I immediately feel a sense of anxiety that I might not be saved. I'm not trying to be funny when I ask - do you know or have you seen that members of the more extreme variations suffer anxiety about whether they're saved? More so than just everyday, normal anxiety? Is there a chronic worry?
I only know of one former Calvinist. He never had the least worry as he assumed that, because he totally believed it, he was of course, one of the saved.
In my experience, the majority of atheists I've known either know nothing about the Bible (most), or they have some knowledge of it, but from a merely academic point of view. I have yet to meet on in real life that really understood the message of the Gospel. That may not be true on this board, but it's been my experience in real life.
I am pleased, but not surprised, that the new survey from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life shows that atheists know just as much -- if not quite a bit more – about religion than do religious people in general. The simple truth is this; the more someone knows about religion, the more likely they will reject it as mythology.
When a person begins to doubt the veracity of the religion into which they happen to have been born, they often read the holy books in the hope that they are wrong, that it will all make sense, and that the answers provided by those books will be logically valid. The problem is, they aren’t.
Now Vizio has gone with the "holy spirit secret decoder" in which one has to have "faith" in order to understand what the bible says.
This puts the non believer in the untenable position of having to argue the silly notion of "faith". When it comes to the bible, "faith" for the believer means ignoring, avoiding, rationalizing, or being ignorant of the portions of the Bible that non believers cannot square with.
The Reverend Real of the Church of Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll (aka Clinton Wiles) says it best. "Being right makes more sense than believing right."
Last edited by eddie gein; 06-11-2014 at 08:02 AM..
Most people where I live are "once saved, always saved" people (Baptists and Methodists). The tulip acronym does not apply to Freewill Baptists. I have one friend who is one and doesn't believe "once saved, always saved", which is their main difference from other mainline protestants.
NoCapo, the two friends who I used to be "church besties" with didn't question my salvation when I came out to them. Actually, one of them started to go Pascal's wager on me and asked me where I'd go if Christianity was right. I told him I'd go to heaven because of the "once saved, always saved" thing just to manipulate him and he got caught really off guard, which I was happy to see. Don't really know or care where I think I would go, but I just wanted to orchestrate a point.
Most people where I live are "once saved, always saved" people (Baptists and Methodists). The tulip acronym does not apply to Freewill Baptists. I have one friend who is one and doesn't believe "once saved, always saved", which is their main difference from other mainline protestants.
NoCapo, the two friends who I used to be "church besties" with didn't question my salvation when I came out to them. Actually, one of them started to go Pascal's wager on me and asked me where I'd go if Christianity was right. I told him I'd go to heaven because of the "once saved, always saved" thing just to manipulate him and he got caught really off guard, which I was happy to see. Don't really know or care where I think I would go, but I just wanted to orchestrate a point.
Technically Methodists are not generally OSAS (once saved always saved). As a denominatio thay are Wesleyan. It really depends on the individual person, though. Southern and General Baptists don't usually hold all five point of Calvinism, usually just two or three.
Some people react very graciously, and are just genuinely confused, others have to find a way to rationalize their doctrine, still others jump to the the conclusion that you are not just an unbeliever, but an enemy. It really depends on the individual.
-NoCapo
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