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This doesn't prove there is a god; all it proves is that some people make unsubstantiated speculations because they don't want to admit the fact that they don't know the answer. The truth is that we just don't know what happened before the Big Bang. It's just as likely that matter could have always existed. It's also illogical to exempt god from being created. If everything needs to have a creator then so does god. It's special pleading. It reminds me of this video:
No, not EVERYTHING needs to have a creator. That's an Atheist belief to think that everything needs to have a creator. And this mindset puts you into an infinite loop (as the speaker says in video "da da da da da ... ) that never ends and you get tired very soon once you get into this loop so you give up.
Rules?
All of what you call rules are just consistencies that have been identified.
Unfortunately, language and terminology has confused many. The labels given to 'theory' and 'law' in a scientific manner being two of the most misunderstood and misused.
No, not EVERYTHING needs to have a creator. That's an Atheist belief to think that everything needs to have a creator. And this mindset puts you into an infinite loop (as the speaker says in video "da da da da da ... ) that never ends and you get tired very soon once you get into this loop so you give up.
No, this is where first cause theism trips. THEY say that everything needs a creator...but, when we ask where God's creator was, that rule goes out the window. I know why. Because some method of breaking the endless line of infinite regression has to be found. Just saying that these laws don't apply to the Thing that got it all started is a hefty cutting of the Gordian knot of infinite regression. But it is, after all, just a human convenience fo disposing of a knotty problem.
There are other solutions, and I reckon the one where the difference that makes no difference IS no difference, is a nice one. When you regress down to where the originated primal substance is so very impalpable and diffuse that it as near to nothing as makes no difference, the need to posit a fully -formed intelligence that plans everything in advance but itself didn't need to come from anywhere seems absurd.
And that answers your next question.
Quote:
And also, you didnt answer, who wrote the rules?
The rules were inherent in the basics of matter. In the way that sub -atomic particles interact, combine and aggregate, because of their inherent physical properties, matter, biomatter, life, consciousness and everything we now have is implicit. It is a false claim that the creator must always be greater than the created. What is created can increase in complexity to be come something one might consider 'greater' than what 'created' it. It is false to claim that there can be no emergence or that information cannot be added.
It is false thinking, based on - I can promise you - a mindset that has the idea of a huge invisible human doing all this stuff and is always looking to argue evidence for it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-15-2014 at 07:36 AM..
Reason: a tidy up..while goating over my rep..
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
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1. As it is generally scientifically understood matter and antimatter formed AFTER the big bang. So this guys "study" of the issue sucked. And loses most of his credibility right off the bat.
2. the rules "written" for our universe are generally understood by science* to have be decided in the first couple of plank times After the big. You can do your reasearch about this issue. And please make sure it better than t the guy in the video's study.
3. As to what happened before the big bang. I think most of the scientific community would say.* As for right now is....we don't know....yet....but we're working on it.
4. As for "things" always existing. This was the only interesting concept of the video. It is definitely possible that this could be "true" BUT this guy assumes intelligence with the concept. Why???? There reason to believe that to be so. He just guessing with out anything to truly back up his argument. It's just that he had decided to believe. Just like many of us here have decided that from what the evidence has shown us that there no need for an intelligence behind everything.
Remember what we keep repeating. We (the skeptics) thus so far can niether prove nor disprove god. But what we can do is* show/present that the religions (and their books) currently built around this deity are most likely man made.
To be honest I think you should becareful going down this road of thought. Why? Well I think this line of thought and that It seem that more and more folks are walking away from the Abrahamic religions (and their books)....leads to something more like mystic phd's or new ager's versions of god (which are more compelling overall)....as opposed to your Koran based god. But that is only my opinion.
Last edited by baystater; 06-15-2014 at 08:29 AM..
'We don't know' is the only honest and reasonable answer we can make to these questions. The efforts to try to argue that a 'God' (in any of the senses that spring to mind when we debate the subject) must necessarily be behind it, fail.
Even if we did accept that a creative mind was behind it, it requires a leap of faith from that sortagod to the specific god of the bible or any other.
The whole of the theist argument is based on the faith -based belief that the god THEY believe in exists and the argument is not about getting at the facts or admitting honestly that we don't know, if we don't, but about using or misusing anything - science, logic or philosophy in order to try to make the God claim look at least convincing. Once that is done, the case for their particular god's reality is made. It probably never even occurs to them to consider that the FirstCause 'god' could be the God of any religion or none. Just as is the basis of and the basic flaw of Pascal's wager, there is only One God on the table - the one they believe in.
No, not EVERYTHING needs to have a creator. That's an Atheist belief to think that everything needs to have a creator.
Actually it's your belief that everything needs to have a creator EXCEPT and ONLY excepting god. That is called "special pleading". We do not assume that everything has or does not have a creator; instead, we look at the evidence for anything having a creator and go based on that.
It then becomes a question of what one accepts as evidence. You discount the chaotic and impersonal nature of the universe and misstate the significance of emergent patterns and consistencies. You posit a creator and look for order and will accept ANY sort of apparent order as evidence of a creator, while ignoring any apparent disorder. We, on the other hand, don't even attempt to answer the question of the creator on the basis that a creator is not a falsifiable proposition, and therefore not testable, and therefore not in the realm of the knowable. That leaves us free to see reality for what it is, nothing more, nothing less.
'We don't know' is the only honest and reasonable answer we can make to these questions.
And it's an answer that theists consistently disparage as lame and impotent. To many theists, anything less than 100% certitude is an epic and intolerable fail -- much less, saying the Three Bad Words ("We Don't Know").
This speaks to one of theism's main raisons d'etre, which is to provide certitude to those who crave it. The word MUST is bandied about quite a lot. There MUST be a creator. There MUST be a reason. There MUST be a purpose. There MUST be something more. And of course it's inverse, CAN'T. This life CAN'T be all there is. We CAN'T be mortal. We CAN'T be responsible for our own thoughts, morality. Gods CAN'T be human inventions, all this ego and fighting and striving for centuries CAN'T be for naught, etc.
All this speaks to what is, to them, unspeakable, intolerable, and unthinkable -- that we are not center-stage in a play being put on for our benefit. That we are not specially favored, eternally destined, separate from rather than having much in common with the rest of the animal kingdom, created rather than evolved. Oh the horror of it all! We are not princes and kings destined for heavenly thrones! We are not sons and daughters of the gods! We don't have purpose and meaning handed to us on a silver platter and fed to us with a silver spoon! Oh the humanity!
Unthinkable!
Intolerable!
You durst not go there -- you mustn't ever! Nooooooooo!
Yes. It is every time regarded with incredulous disbelief 'We don't know'. It simply does not cross their mind that not knowing does not mean that 'God' is the answer. it means that nobody knows and therefore the question is pointless and futile.
But 'Who made everything then? Who made dem laws, anyway?' (we actually saw that here ) and then we are into the argument again and any alternatives to goddunnit are dismissed as absurd..ridiculous. 'You can't possibly believe that...the only way I could have got here was by red Prius..' (1) and (2)
The debate goes on and on, but I think the point is getting across that First cause is not a sound argument fo any god, let alone a particular one, and 'We Don't Know' is not a signal for Genesis to be waved about as the only textbook available on the subject.
I am truly sorry if you have to sit though the freakin' advert. It is the price we have to pay for having this stuff available on -line.
(2) sorry...blue...a slip like that can have you barred from the eternal top of the range show-room and banished to the infernal carwash and screenwipe.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-15-2014 at 09:59 AM..
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problem. 
) and then we are into the argument again and any alternatives to goddunnit are dismissed as absurd..ridiculous. 'You can't possibly believe that...the only way I could have got here was by red Prius..' (1) and (2)
