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Also, it helps a lot to be clear about what I actually am and am not entitled to. I had a tendency to think that life or existence "owed" me something, usually to be "fair" to me. Once I got it through my thick skull that such concepts presuppose an Orchestrator that (1) exists (2) is in charge and (3) cares about me -- any one of which is highly unlikely, much less all three at once -- I spent a lot less time bemoaning The Way Things Ought To Be
This is all pretty logical and easy to say. But it's a bitter pill to swallow, sometimes. Don't you think?
This is all pretty logical and easy to say. But it's a bitter pill to swallow, sometimes. Don't you think?
Bitter . . . yes . . . and is usually the result of bitterness and disillusionment. Bart Erhman attributes his atheism to the existence of suffering and evil in the world. The very intellect we use to raise these questions and issues is itself the cause of the all the angst. But, IMO . . . it takes a particularly cynical and disillusioned intellect to accept that our remarkable (and angst-ridden) consciousness arose out of a completely non-living, non-conscious, indifferent reality.
Bitter . . . yes . . . and is usually the result of bitterness and disillusionment. Bart Erhman attributes his atheism to the existence of suffering and evil in the world. The very intellect we use to raise these questions and issues is itself the cause of the all the angst. But, IMO . . . it takes a particularly cynical and disillusioned intellect to accept that our remarkable (and angst-ridden) consciousness arose out of a completely non-living, non-conscious, indifferent reality.
Most atheists attribute their atheism to a lack of evidence and reason to believe that there is a god. That goes triple for those personal gods who act as voyeurs throughout your life marking every mistake you make on a cosmic clipboard so that he can nag you to death about it once you die.
Most atheists attribute their atheism to a lack of evidence and reason to believe that there is a god. That goes triple for those personal gods who act as voyeurs throughout your life marking every mistake you make on a cosmic clipboard so that he can nag you to death about it once you die.
Yes it is unfortunate that God has such incompetent and irrational marketers.
Find something tangible to believe in/be passionate about, like a political cause or a hobby. That's essentially the role that religion serves for its more fervent believers (and I don't mean that in either a positive or negative way).
This is something that happens to me from time to time. Even though I "know" that atheism is probably the most intellectually honest position, I find that it does not always relieve anxiety and bring peace and happiness to the mind.
Can anyone else relate to this? If so, how have you reconciled this contradiction? Let's hear about your journey.
In the beginning of my atheism, I had a -wish- for something more than a dirt nap upon death. Even now, I sometimes fantasize about an afterlife - but not a religious afterlife where you spend eternity with your forehead to the floor or fetching God a glass of water (or whatever we're supposed to do when we "serve" him). No, my afterlife was my own, my creation. The kind of afterlife I would want to have, not an afterlife some egomaniac god forces me to have.
Oddly enough, in recent years, I've hit a sort of painful dichotomy. Most know that I'm disabled and spend most of my time in some level of pain. I've essentially been taken out of life and forced to merely observe it. All of my hopes, dreams, and MOST of the things I once enjoyed are gone from me now.
Knowing that this is the ONLY life I'm going to get has been somewhat depressing and discouraging, to be honest with you folks. I sometimes wish that I'll have a shot at life again, only this time with a fair shake. Or, barring that, an afterlife to make THIS life worthwhile. Because in my condition, I just don't see that it is.
However, having said that (and this is what makes this a painful dichotomy), not believing in gods, especially a personal God, was the only way I could have coped with the pain. The lack of gods means there's no one to blame, no intelligence messing with my life. It means there isn't a so-called benevolent God either afflicting me with this condition on purpose or one that stands idly by and does nothing to cure me. It means there's no one for me to shake my fist at and demand to know why.
Knowing that this condition is just bad luck and nothing more is easier than to believe that some deity up there is making me miserable on purpose for some mysterious, unknowable reason.
And for those who think that everyone who experiences suffering is being groomed for a higher purpose or that it is meant to make us stronger, I always direct them to the story of Job. In this story, God allows Satan to torment Job as a test of his faith - and one such torment was the death of Job's family when the roof of their home caved in on them. Well ... how were the members of Job's family helped by their senseless deaths? No, they were killed to further someone -else's- story. Thus, to believe in a God means I can never know if my pain is about me at all. In fact, it is just as likely that God pissed away my life to make someone -else- stronger or to teach a lesson to a complete stranger. Who knows? So there is no comfort in the "it's making you stronger" or "you're being groomed" angle some Christians like to use.
So yeah ... even though I sometimes regret the fact that my one and only life essentially ended when the first twinge of pain assaulted me, at least I know it wasn't done on purpose.
I understand the feeling. If you were involved in organized religion, you might need to look at activities which addressed other needs than just those centered around your religious beliefs. For example, live music and a social component may have gotten commingled with your beliefs and/or perhaps they helped give you some sense of peace. Participating in activities with a group (even if they are good people, or especially if they are) will become difficult if you don't believe. No longer being part of desirable activities that went hand in hand with religious participation may also leave a void. Whether or not this applies to your situation, an honest look at what causes anxiety might help. Life is going to bring anxiety whether or not you believe. Learning how to be honest about one's anxiety is a process.
This is something that happens to me from time to time. Even though I "know" that atheism is probably the most intellectually honest position, I find that it does not always relieve anxiety and bring peace and happiness to the mind.
Can anyone else relate to this? If so, how have you reconciled this contradiction? Let's hear about your journey.
Yes, scientific surveys have shown that atheists are more anxious. I think anxiety is good sometimes.
I don't just NEED, I already BELIEVE whatever I want to. But then again, I care about the truth more so then whether reality matches my desires.
anxiety is usually caused by lack of acceptance, and it's a kind of motivation.
peace is usually caused by lack of fear, and its a feeling.
happiness is usually caused by attained desires, and it's an outlook.
They all seem to interconnect really.
I am thankful to my occasional bouts of anxiety, lack of peace makes peace more worth it, and lack of happiness lets me know something needs to change in the environment. I like all the feelings really, except for pain (certain kinds).
Shirina, my "Pastors" expounded that the afterlife would be something you would like "the best you looked and felt, ever, and more" Your environment is always your favorite environment, your activity your favorite activity. I just decided it would all get boring, I don't think I want to live forever. I do wish there was Justice though, but that can be arranged, not just wished for. "oh but this criminal died before anything bad happened to him" whatever, I can accept that... I don't need to make him immortal in my imagination. I decided I didn't want vengeance, just Justice...dead man can do no wrong, so whatever if he wasn't properly educated in time. The focus must turn to those who can be.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 07-26-2014 at 02:46 AM..
However, having said that (and this is what makes this a painful dichotomy), not believing in gods, especially a personal God, was the only way I could have coped with the pain. The lack of gods means there's no one to blame, no intelligence messing with my life. It means there isn't a so-called benevolent God either afflicting me with this condition on purpose or one that stands idly by and does nothing to cure me. It means there's no one for me to shake my fist at and demand to know why.
Knowing that this condition is just bad luck and nothing more is easier than to believe that some deity up there is making me miserable on purpose for some mysterious, unknowable reason.
*clap* *clap* *clap* You get it. Those reading this who have been fortunate enough not to know deep suffering or loss, take this as a truthful message from the Other Side.
Sadly, the other possible response is (to use a much-overused metaphor) to "double down" and praise god while the tears stream down your face. This is what evangelicals actually tell people to do. In ALL things give thanks. Well, I did that, too. I meekly accepted everything as the will of god. But somewhere in the middle of the decade or so of exquisite torture my late 2nd wife endured in her disease process, I grew tired of bearing witness to something that, from god's perspective, was 100% preventable. I was simply no longer able to make excuses for my imagined all loving, all knowing and all powerful god allowing the person I loved and did my best to support and protect, to die by slow, tortuous degrees, day by miserable and, yes, god-forsaken day. And she was one of god's best servants, too. Back when she actually had a life she had inspired countless others to be their best person, as evidenced by people who hadn't seen her in 30 years bothering to attend her funeral from afar.
When she finally, mercifully, died and the autopsy laid out the gruesome details of what was left of her internal organs, I had the same choice as Shirina does: be bitter, angry, disillusioned, and confused, or accept life as it actually is: to exist in an impersonal universe where some people are simply unlucky.
If I had understood this simple and painfully obvious principle I would not have possessed the Jesus complex that caused me to think that love was inherently and inexorably redemptive -- and I would not have married my first wife despite the full knowledge that she was afflicted with serious mental illness. I would not have imagined that god would not allow her to descend into greater and greater madness, that he would never forsake her, now that she was a Christian. What rubbish. She was "SOL" when I met her, probably when she was born. If I could have accepted that simple and brutal fact of existence I would not have bitten off more than I could chew. I would not have had children who bear the scars of being raised in that environment and the genetic baggage to pass on to their own unsuspecting offspring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
... how were the members of Job's family helped by their senseless deaths? No, they were killed to further someone -else's- story. Thus, to believe in a God means I can never know if my pain is about me at all. In fact, it is just as likely that God pissed away my life to make someone -else- stronger or to teach a lesson to a complete stranger. Who knows? So there is no comfort in the "it's making you stronger" or "you're being groomed" angle some Christians like to use.
Once again, spot-on. For those who think it's depressing to think that we live in a mechanistic universe with no inherent purpose, you make it WORSE by putting intention behind it. If there is one thing worse than the universe unintentionally stepping on your toes or squashing you like a bug, it's the universe USING you for its own ineffable and inscrutable purposes, which are far more important than your puny existence, concerns or desires.
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