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Old 09-27-2014, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,152 posts, read 26,038,809 times
Reputation: 27877

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
And yet you support an illegal invasion of privacy by the government. No other branch of the military requires this as part of their oath. No verification of belief is ever performed.

It is not "encouraging/condoning lying" it is forcing it of those who wish to serve in the Air Force.

Pleased to see that they dropped this requirement and welcome to the 21st century to the USAF. Hope you decide to come along.
What the hell did I say that gave you that idea???
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,908 posts, read 9,513,836 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
What the hell did I say that gave you that idea???
That you wish to continue their illegal actions in requiring this oath and that those who refuse should not be trusted. This indicates that you consider investigation into those taking this oath to be alright. Hence, an invasion of privacy.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:26 PM
 
6,324 posts, read 4,296,263 times
Reputation: 4333
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Hey, I was just going to say that!! lol

I just posted this in the last thread I was on but it's even more appropriate here:
A photograph of U.S. tanks in Iraq used a further passage from Isaiah: 'Their arrows are sharp, all their bows are strung, their horses' hoofs seem like flint, their chariot wheels are like a whirlwind.'

Anti-war campaigners said the images and words were used by Mr Rumsfeld to curry favour with his boss by playing on Mr Bush's devout religious beliefs.

The Reverend Barry Lynn, of the U.S. campaign group Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said U.S. soldiers 'are not Christian crusaders, and they ought not be depicted as such'.

He added: 'Depicting the Iraq conflict as some sort of holy war is completely outrageous. It's tremendously damaging to America's reputation in the world.'
Donald Rumsfeld's holy war: How President Bush's Iraq briefings came with quotes from the Bible | Daily Mail Online

How long will we let the fake continue, there is no separation from church and state in America. Only the desire of some for it, let's just get this out in the open.

Hobby Lobby just won their right to refuse women preventive healthcare because of some supernatural entity. And now, you can't join the peace corps unless you pledge to this entity, even if you don't believe it. We already can't listen to the president without getting a supernatural blessing from a God at the end of every speech, we have nobody to trust who's human, we are only directed to trust in this entity people call God, etc, etc, etc,,,,,

Let's not act like this isn't weird because it is to over half the world......and the rest we continue to have wars with.
Don't forget what the Kentucky Department of Homeland Security did ...

Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged
The 2006 law organizing the state Office of Homeland Security lists its initial duty as "stressing the dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth."

Specifically, Homeland Security is ordered to publicize God's benevolent protection in its reports, and it must post a plaque at the entrance to the state Emergency Operations Center with an 88-word statement that begins, "The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God."
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Old 09-28-2014, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,152 posts, read 26,038,809 times
Reputation: 27877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
That you wish to continue their illegal actions in requiring this oath and that those who refuse should not be trusted. This indicates that you consider investigation into those taking this oath to be alright. Hence, an invasion of privacy.
You are not repeating anything that I wrote.
I will have to assume you misread or misinterpreted whatever you think it was.
I will make it clear that this oath should never have been required and, although late, it is very good that it no longer is.
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:18 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,866,823 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Don't forget what the Kentucky Department of Homeland Security did ...

Anti-terror law requires God be acknowledged
The 2006 law organizing the state Office of Homeland Security lists its initial duty as "stressing the dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth."

Specifically, Homeland Security is ordered to publicize God's benevolent protection in its reports, and it must post a plaque at the entrance to the state Emergency Operations Center with an 88-word statement that begins, "The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God."
When Canada's constitution was repatriated in 1982, there was a huge discussion on the inclusion of god in that should be in it. Canada was a much more religious country then as compared to today.

The framers solved the problem by including this phrase as the preamble only:

Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:


It then goes on to outline what the constitution actually includes. As such, it gave the religious their crumbs, and from an application point of view, the Supreme Court never has to refer to it when making decisions, as it is just words, not law. It probably won't be many years and it will be viewed as an anachronism. It would be interesting to see if the preamble is subject to the amending formula.

What a convoluted way of doing things, but I guess policy making is akin to sausage making, not pretty.
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Old 09-29-2014, 07:22 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,908 posts, read 9,513,836 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
To suggest going ahead and taking the oath anyway is encouraging/condoning lying. If someone would lie out of convenience in this instance how can they be trusted not to do so in another? Honesty and trustworthiness is important to me.
But only in the Air Force, right? None of the other services have them and they seem to do just fine.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:23 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,583 posts, read 15,502,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
But only in the Air Force, right? None of the other services have them and they seem to do just fine.
None of the other service branches required the recruit to say "so help me God." at the end of the oath. For some reason, it seems like the Air Force has pushed religion (read that as protestant Christianity) at its employees a little more that the other branches of the military have.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:30 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 2,353,007 times
Reputation: 1011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Allen View Post
A news item that came to my attention via Metafilter:

"So help me God." | MetaFilter

An airman at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada has allegedly been denied the ability to re-enlist after he refused to use the words "so help me God" in his oath. On September 2, the Appignani Humanist Legal Center sent a letter on his behalf. Up until last fall, Air Force Instruction 36-2606, which spells out the active duty oath, had a provision where an airman could omit the words, but that was dropped last October.

Group: Airman denied reenlistment for refusing to say 'so help me God' | Air Force Times | airforcetimes.com
http://americanhumanist.org/system/s...4090209010.pdf
Group: Refusal to say 'so help me God' sidelines airman
Oh c'mon guys.

If you do not believe in God, those words have no meaning. Being anguished at being forced to say those words means you do actually believe in God, just not that God.

Let's say those words words were of some tribal god Un'gi. I, a follower of Son'gi, would be appalled at having to declare loyalty to a rival god. But a modern person that didn't care about either would just either replace it in their head with whatever they believe, or shrug it off as senseless religious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjj7NCYMehg

Why are you still carrying the woman?
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Old 09-30-2014, 11:49 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,908 posts, read 9,513,836 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
None of the other service branches required the recruit to say "so help me God." at the end of the oath. For some reason, it seems like the Air Force has pushed religion (read that as protestant Christianity) at its employees a little more that the other branches of the military have.
And have changed their stance as it was illegal. Seems as if they tried to coerce enlistees to accept the beliefs (religious at least) of those higher up the food chain.

As for "a little more", the other branches don't have such a requirement, haven't for years. Why did only the Air Force have it?
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,965,444 times
Reputation: 21237
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Oh c'mon guys.

If you do not believe in God, those words have no meaning. Being anguished at being forced to say those words means you do actually believe in God, just not that God.

Let's say those words words were of some tribal god Un'gi. I, a follower of Son'gi, would be appalled at having to declare loyalty to a rival god. But a modern person that didn't care about either would just either replace it in their head with whatever they believe, or shrug it off as senseless religious stuff.
You have it that a religious believer would be offended in required in some manner to renounce his or her belief, or swear fidelity to some god to which he or she did not subscribe, but are unable to figure out why an atheist should be offended by having to take an oath expressing a belief not held.

That is an odd two tiered system which suggests that only the religious need take oaths seriously and if you are an atheist, you should not be bothered by the lie. It hints at atheists being absent a conscience and consequently not bothered by the morals involved.

It does not work that way, atheism is not the automatic abandonment of moral principles.

You advise atheists to shrug off false oaths, while simultaneously wanting protection from such a thing for yourself.
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