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The flaw in Pascal's Wager is the very idea that a person can decide to believe something. That's ridiculous! I don't like pickles. I can't just DECIDE one day that I'm going to like pickles. I tried it. I still don't like pickles. You can ACT like you believe something, but you can't voluntarily decide to believe or not believe anything. If you decide to act like you are religious, wouldn't God know that, in your heart, you are just acting?
Exactly!! If there is a deity and he happens to be the bible god then he would know that one would just be pretending to believe out of fear of hell. So Pascal's Wager just fails on all levels.
Exactly!! If there is a deity and he happens to be the bible god then he would know that one would just be pretending to believe out of fear of hell. So Pascal's Wager just fails on all levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
Moderator cut: orphaned
Sorry Snowball. I read your post twice. Slowly and carefully. I can't find anything in what you posted that has anything to do with what Northsouth said. Where does your post address the issue that "God knows you're really just pretending to believe in Him?" Isn't it extremely audacious to think you can fool God by dressing up and going to church?
There are two major flaws (and I think most intellectually-inclined religious people agree):
1: You can't choose what to believe.
2: You don't KNOW that:
a) all you have to do is believe in God to get eternal life, or
b) anyone who doesn't believe in God gets eternally damned.
The more fundamentalist branches of Christianity and Islam have completely different paths to salvation, and each believes that the other path leads to damnation! So which of the two do you choose? Of course, it may also be that God will reincarnate you, or that he'll send you to heaven no matter what, or that he won't do anything. Or, (as my own agnostic mind hopes on a good day) maybe there is a deity, but humans haven't come close to describing it, and never will.
There are just so many possible Gods, that you can't possibly know which one to pick. Very, very few of them just say "believe in me and be saved" with no other conditions.
Sorry Snowball. I read your post twice. Slowly and carefully. I can't find anything in what you posted that has anything to do with what Northsouth said. Where does your post address the issue that "God knows you're really just pretending to believe in Him?" Isn't it extremely audacious to think you can fool God by dressing up and going to church?
Pascal had answers to these questions, in his Pensees, and many others have
lived through this dilemma you present, so the answers are indeed out there,
if it's something you feel worth pursuing. Fear of God is a step. God doesn't demand
absolutes from someone willing to find him, especially in early stages. So there,
you can read what Pascal said, or hear about others experieces with this and how
they got over it. Anyway I don't want to violate forum rules again so I'll just move along.
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
Pascal had answers to these questions, in his Pensees, and many others have
lived through this dilemma you present, so the answers are indeed out there,
if it's something you feel worth pursuing. Fear of God is a step. God doesn't demand
absolutes from someone willing to find him, especially in early stages. So there,
you can read what Pascal said, or hear about others experieces with this and how
they got over it. Anyway I don't want to violate forum rules again so I'll just move along.
What in faq are talking about! Fear of god is positive thing when searching either for him/her/it ...and/or to answer the "big" questions. Why? What is your justification to even make a statement like that?
Then on top of this right afterward you make the statement that god does demand absolutes....well it seems to me your version of god demands absolute fear. You're making no sense kid!
Last edited by baystater; 09-27-2014 at 04:31 PM..
Fear of God is a step. God doesn't demand
absolutes from someone willing to find him
Fear of that entity is exactly what Pascals Wager is based on.
Yet if one sees no reason to think there is a god, then there is nothing to fear.
So in essence what makes pascals wager so poor and such a fail.... is that it presupposes belief in the thing it is purporting to be an argument for believing.
And any argument for X that replies on presupposing X, is a poor argument.
The flaw in Pascal's Wager is the very idea that a person can decide to believe something. That's ridiculous! I don't like pickles. I can't just DECIDE one day that I'm going to like pickles. I tried it. I still don't like pickles. You can ACT like you believe something, but you can't voluntarily decide to believe or not believe anything. If you decide to act like you are religious, wouldn't God know that, in your heart, you are just acting?
A perfectly logical and sensible point that I have thought myself. And it is astounding that this angle has apparently not occurred to so many who deem themselves as believers. They will themselves to "believe" it because they are cowed into submission out of "fear of dire consequences." Yet does it not occur to them that this "God", that they say exists, is described by them as being "omniscient" (knowing ALL things, without exception) and that therefore we must all be 100% completely transparent to him . . . so he KNOWS if you really, really believe the propositions put forth at the core of your being or if instead you are just putting on a believing stance out of fear. And, abiding by the tenets of what is meant by saying that this purported God is "omniscient", this God has always known (for all eternity past) what any particular named person would truly believe and then truly not believe. So, understanding all this (and expressing it in the OP's phrasing), why are there persons who think that they can ACT like they believe something and that this is perfectly acceptable to this purported God who will purportedly judge us all? For this purported God, by virtue of being "omniscient", already KNOWS, and has always known, what you really feel and believe in the core of your being!
The very fact that they (the believers) call what they do "faith" speaks for itself. It is not knowledge that they have but rather what we can call "make-believe" (i.e., they make themselves believe it, out of simple fear or some other emotional need). Another word for making oneself believe something to be true is "faith". Why is this laudatory in their minds? Something is either true or not true or else it is partially true and partially false at the same time. If it truly is true and real, then it should make itself evident to us that it is so. And, in the end, if you don't know if something is true (in an epistemological sense), then we should just say "I don't know" or "We don't know". That is intellectual honesty. Faith is not intellectual honesty; it is "making or pushing or compelling oneself to believe" regardless of its lack of believability . . . which is a longer way of simply saying "make-believe".
The flaw in Pascal's Wager is the very idea that a person can decide to believe something. That's ridiculous! I don't like pickles. I can't just DECIDE one day that I'm going to like pickles. I tried it. I still don't like pickles. You can ACT like you believe something, but you can't voluntarily decide to believe or not believe anything. If you decide to act like you are religious, wouldn't God know that, in your heart, you are just acting?
This ^^^^! The flaw in all the religions focused on believing specific "precepts and doctrines of men" and dogma ABOUT God is revealed in this simple truth. We do NOT choose what we believe, period!
Who told you that, where did this popular quip come from. All it boils down to is suggesting people do not have the ability to make any considerations ( weighing out) at all for thought.
No one is claiming that we don't have the ability to weigh (with varying degrees of accuracy and objectivity) "considerations" (each of which has some degree of reality or unreality).
We choose what facts to (not) pay attention to, up to a tipping point of cognitive dissonance that varies from person to person. But once facts are admitted into evidence and awareness, we cannot pretend to believe other than what the facts bear out.
I have experienced conclusively that life in the real world has virtually nothing to do with the imagined outcomes of belief in / faith in god, his word, or his promises -- at least for me personally. If not for me, and if not for others with similar experiences, then not for a large percentage of people. Therefore, trust in god <> positive outcomes as promised, in any way that's distinguishable from random happenstance at least. Once you experience life sufficiently contrary and at odds with what is claimed / promised, this is info that cannot be un-known, un-seen, un-experienced. One's beliefs must then be based on what has been learned, seen, and experienced -- either that or you commit intellectual suicide. End of story.
In addition once your mind is open to all available data, not just cherry-picked or desired data, that is more seen data that cannot be un-seen.
This is the sense in which beliefs are not voluntary. Many beliefs about reality, the self, and other people (and not just theistic beliefs) are based on a tissue of rationalizations, misperceptions and outright lies. The magical beliefs in god, True Love, Mom and apple pie, my country right or wrong, the rightness and righteousness of my perceived mission in life, blah blah, work so long as you can rationalize your life outcomes against the benefits you belief in and cultivation of these notions provide. If that doesn't happen, and/or your "rationalizer" wears out, then look out, because it all falls apart like a string of dominoes.
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