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I suppose that was my first impression, long ago, of our own Nozz. But I eventually warmed to his technique. He really has a very simple approach.
1) I have never had any one present any evidence to me -- at all -- for god.
2) Please do present it to me.
And then he's just relentless about being consistent and holding people's feet to the fire. No, that's not evidence. Please try again.
Is this deflating to the worldview and often ego of his interlocutors? Sure. Is it condescending? No, I don't think so. It's just a great demonstration of a very excellent BS filter. People BS themselves. A lot. Nozz, being human, BSes himself, now and then, I'm sure. But he doesn't BS himself, or let anyone BS him, about what is and is not known and/or likely metaphysically. That is all. This is a form of tough love, and it would be wildly inappropriate in many real world contexts, but it's entirely valid in a debate forum (or in someone representing a sizable atheist organization and defending it against theist disinformation -- which is also one of his roles).
Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, as the saying goes. Sometimes you can't sugar coat things. Sometimes, to quote the Bible, "the wounds of a friend are faithful". Where Nozz would cross the line is if he were indiscriminately ramming atheist reasoning on unwilling random strangers (door to door cold calls, or bellowing on a public street corner to passers-by maybe would be extreme examples). But when you engage on a forum, or when you engage willingly with an atheist organization, you can't expect the person you are engaging with to issue kudos to your magnificence. You enter the kitchen, you take the heat -- or get out. If you don't have an argument, don't make one. If you have an opinion that you can't support, at least to others -- don't call it an argument or a fact. You're entitled to your opinions so long as you own them as what they actually are.
I respect your opinions and beliefs in terms of your right to have them. Obviously I don't respect them in terms of finding them something I can subscribe to. But we are okay with each other being different persons with different beliefs and while we may try to be persuasive we haven't any malfunctions with each other as persons.
Maybe the defining feature of fundamentalist thinking is that fundamentalism always dehumanizes The Other so as to protect and advance itself and excuse a failure to respect the self determination of The Other. THAT is the root attitude that bothers us both about fundamentalist thinking, IMO.
I don't really disagree with what you are saying. The OP pondered "why". I just tried to explain why. There are a couple of posters who I think fit the description. My solution to them is that I don't answer their posts or acknowledge them in any way. That makes me feel better.
You spoke of Nozz. I think he is a case in point. You see, one the most difficult things for Christians is that we have no forum of our own. We should have a forum of our own. It should be called "Christianity". We have to share our forum with non-Christians. Sadly, it runs a lot of Christians off. Nozz is a perfect example of what we don't need in the Christianity forum. Why should every single post be criticized, challenged, scoffed at? Why should every Christian be challenged, insulted, told they shouldn't be believing whatever they are believing? Christians should have a right to gather and discuss and say and be whatever they feel with out the Nozz's of this world being there.
The OP came here to ask his question. He didn't ask it in the forum where he was called an AF. Why not (with all due respect)? I assume he felt more comfortable here. That is what Christians would like to have.
Sadly, you have your forum ... and ours, too. It is extremely frustrating.
There is the Religion and Spirituality forum, which could be used for the clash between the two. It is, but Christianity forum is also.
With all due respect, I am not trying to be rude or insult anyone, but we don't care what the Nozzes of the world think. We don't care how you perceive us or what you think of us or our religions. Nobody has converted and are not likely too. The Nozzes of the world are unwelcomed interlopers. The Nozzes of the world are not viewed in a kindly manner (and that is as nicely as I can put it).
I know that everyone has the right to free speech in any forum they choose. This forum isn't overrun by Christians telling you how you should be living your life, and what is wrong with you and how bad your choices are. I'm here, but not because I was cruising your forum so I could come in here and insult you. This thread was the featured thread in the top section of the page and I saw the topic and decided to answer.
I wish the militant atheists would find another place to crusade.
I don't have a problem with personal religion or private "quests for the divine" or what have you. But I do take issue with the "I have THE TRUTH directly from the mind of God himself, and if you don't believe me then you will burn in hell" mentality. Especially when it's forced on children, since they don't yet have critical thinking skills.
exactly freakboy.
what should be forced on children is deciding for themselves through the use of every "tool" they can. Problem is some good tools are in "tool bags". But they are good tools none the less.
IWe have to share our forum with non-Christians. .........snip................... I'm here, but not because I was cruising your forum so I could come in here and insult you. This thread was the featured thread in the top section of the page and I saw the topic and decided toanswer.
You see, one the most difficult things for Christians is that we have no forum of our own.
There is a Christianity forum at the same level as this one, under Religion & Spirituality. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Paganism are all represented. R&S is just a catch-all for "other".
If what you're saying is that those forums should bar unbelievers, I don't really agree. We welcome theists in this forum, the only rule here being against proselytization. I seldom visit the Christianity forum myself, for obvious reasons, but when on occasion I post there I engage very differently than here or in R&S. I seldom if ever rain on anyone's parade because the Christianity forum should be a "safe" place to discuss belief. The main problem IMO is that forum seems to consist largely of Christians arguing points of doctrine with Christians. Particularly liberal vs fundamentalist. I'm happy to leave it for them to duke it out, as those questions mostly no longer interest me.
What happens when you try to enforce "Christians only" or "Muslims only" is that you quickly find that it's very difficult to enforce in practice and even members of the forum will disagree on who deserves to be given those labels because of the diversity within those broad categories and the overrepresentation of fundamentalists who aren't tolerant of diversity. Then you have a default exclusionary stance and the whole vibe that goes with that.
The only way forward IMO is to treat everyone like adults and to police the infantile behaviors that crop up anyway.
Arguably online forums are not the place to build ideological ghettoes and defend them against Outsiders. That's not how the Internet is structured. That is more the province of finding a local church or other social group that you can (mostly) feel comfortable with but even there, there will be factions and cliques or leadership decisions you don't agree with.
There is a Christianity forum at the same level as this one, under Religion & Spirituality. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Paganism are all represented. R&S is just a catch-all for "other".
If what you're saying is that those forums should bar unbelievers, I don't really agree. We welcome theists in this forum, the only rule here being against proselytization. I seldom visit the Christianity forum myself, for obvious reasons, but when on occasion I post there I engage very differently than here or in R&S. I seldom if ever rain on anyone's parade because the Christianity forum should be a "safe" place to discuss belief. The main problem IMO is that forum seems to consist largely of Christians arguing points of doctrine with Christians. Particularly liberal vs fundamentalist. I'm happy to leave it for them to duke it out, as those questions mostly no longer interest me.
What happens when you try to enforce "Christians only" or "Muslims only" is that you quickly find that it's very difficult to enforce in practice and even members of the forum will disagree on who deserves to be given those labels because of the diversity within those broad categories and the overrepresentation of fundamentalists who aren't tolerant of diversity. Then you have a default exclusionary stance and the whole vibe that goes with that.
The only way forward IMO is to treat everyone like adults and to police the infantile behaviors that crop up anyway.
Arguably online forums are not the place to build ideological ghettoes and defend them against Outsiders. That's not how the Internet is structured. That is more the province of finding a local church or other social group that you can (mostly) feel comfortable with but even there, there will be factions and cliques or leadership decisions you don't agree with.
I totally understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with it. I was only referring to the militant aspect. Non-believers seemed surprised (if that is the right word) that believers aren't grateful for their insight. It is just all very convoluted.
Non-believers seemed surprised (if that is the right word) that believers aren't grateful for their insight.
Some of us definitely are boogers about it at times. Very often though believers seem surprised when we aren't grateful for their insight. They are accustomed to being routinely validated within their echo chambers and that other ideas exist and are seriously entertained by intelligent and ethical and sincere people for considered reasons is like a bucket of cold water.
Anyway since you said you're welcome, I'll say thank you: thanks for your moderate and respectful and realistic approach to your beliefs.
Yes. And some can be abrasive and even trollish. I was even invited to do a parachute into a theists forum and post rude messages. I totally disapproved and still do. I believe that treating people with respect - even if you disagree (but that doesn't mean agreeing with them so as not to upset them) is by far the best way. We need to cultivate a persuasive style. Atheists have an awfully long Bad rap to overcome, and it is made worse by those who have a desire to see us continue to be regarded as bad. We have really to be excruciatingly better than the opposition, who have two thousand years of being thought good simply because of what they believe.
It is especially hard when we come up against those who will not be reasonable, deny evidence and generally try the patience. How do you tell someone they are being intellectually dishonest, logically flawed and closed minded without looking like an arrogant fundamentalist? Yet it has to be said.
I'm a maple syrup man myself. I'm assuming these aren't potato waffles. And coffee. Thick, strong and sweet.
I agree. There are ways to say things. I wonder if some people just don't learn the art of conversation, so they can't help themselves. Or, they are just mean folks out in the real world, too. Or, do some people just need a dog to kick so they come online actively looking. It's very easy to be "brave" online.
Yeah, I like maple syrup myself - and real butter. yum.
There are ways to say things. I wonder if some people just don't learn the art of conversation, so they can't help themselves. Or, they are just mean folks out in the real world, too. Or, do some people just need a dog to kick so they come online actively looking. It's very easy to be "brave" online.
It's my observation that the generation that has come of age in the past decade or so is rather ... shall we say, "un-genteel". Very rough with one another. They routinely exclaim "shut UP" to each other, and far worse. They often apply this to their elders, too. Basic respect and kindness are on a downtick right now; there's a reason some call it the "me generation"*. It will probably go the other way over the next decade. But some of what you see online is young people showing what they know about appropriate social interaction in a civil society, which is to say, not much.
* Yeah, I know that was originally applied to the Boomers, but the children and grandchildren of Boomers verge on the Narcissism Generation sometimes in my experience. Some of it is that they've never known anything but the instant gratification of the information age and the vapidity of social media and the breakdown of the implicit contract of mutual loyalty between employers and employees, etc. They couldn't write their way out of a paper bag if the writing involved things like thank-you notes.
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My solution to them is that I don't answer their posts or acknowledge them in any way. That makes me feel better. 
I'm a maple syrup man myself. I'm assuming these aren't potato waffles. And coffee. Thick, strong and sweet.
