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Old 04-13-2015, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Well, if we now get the same tax breaks as the religious groups.....
They get those tax breaks because they have incorporated as 501(c)3s, and you don't have to be a religious group to get those tax breaks.

There are national atheist advocacy nonprofits, I don't know of any local atheist meeting groups that have so incorporated. Although in some areas, the unitarians are pretty darn close to an atheist meeting group.
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
They get those tax breaks because they have incorporated as 501(c)3s, and you don't have to be a religious group to get those tax breaks.

There are national atheist advocacy nonprofits, I don't know of any local atheist meeting groups that have so incorporated. Although in some areas, the unitarians are pretty darn close to an atheist meeting group.
Yes, Unitarian / Universalists come close, but were originally Christian before they embraced the twin heresies of rejecting the Trinity and not believing in hell and, finally, rejecting all creeds and doctrinal litmus tests for membership. So they may arguably be regarded as a "grandfathered religion". Regardless, though, they are definitely a non-profit even as many of them amend their bylaws to strike the phrase "the church" and replace it with "the Society".

The question is not so much that religions get non-profit status but whether it should be an all-or-nothing status and whether they get sufficient scrutiny regarding things like not lining the pockets of leadership, not telling people how to vote, etc. I believe that some percentage of what nearly any church does doesn't really quality for non-profit benefits, and some of them are just thin veneers over for-profit money making ventures. Christian Science definitely is a bridge too far in that regard, and some megachurches are off the rails too. I gave the example earlier of a church in Buffalo NY that has a Subway franchise right on-premise which is excused as a way to train the disadvantaged, give them job skills, mentor them, etc. But you could say that about ANY sandwich franchise location -- and it doesn't exempt them from paying taxes.*

I fear that atheists becoming a protected class in some quarters is a double-edged sword because it brings with it confusion about whether an atheist organization is a church or a simple non profit. I predict butt-kicking contests between theists and atheists similar to the argument over agnosticism vs atheism, knowledge vs belief, whether unbelief is a religion, etc etc etc. It is too nuanced a discussion for either side to try to reduce it to 100% black and white, right and wrong.


* For all I know this church has carved that out as a non tax-exempt enterprise but I know megachurches can have franchise operations "on-campus" too and I'm not so much passing judgment on the practice as I am calling for oversight that has actual teeth and that these kinds of gray areas are not abused. Because they are RIPE for abuse.
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:49 AM
 
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another trait on the duck list.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:10 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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You seem really intent on making atheism a religion. Ok, so what if we were? How would that make any difference?
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
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Ugh, I detest relating atheism to religion. That is why rather than having atheist organizations included under an existing tax code with religions turns me off. I'd rather have the tax code itself changed or expanded. Better yet, I hope that either these religious tax breaks go away entirely, or if we can't have that, make it so that how much money religious organizations get and how they spend or use the money transparent to the public.
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annilyna View Post
Ugh, I detest relating atheism to religion. That is why rather than having atheist organizations included under an existing tax code with religions turns me off. I'd rather have the tax code itself changed or expanded. Better yet, I hope that either these religious tax breaks go away entirely, or if we can't have that, make it so that how much money religious organizations get and how they spend or use the money transparent to the public.
Yes, transparency should be a requirement (and not just in theory) and the purpose of the transparency is to demonstrate that apart from some allowed administrative and infrastructure overhead, volunteer labor is converted into actual social benefit.

Much of religion makes the mistake of elevating dogma and belief over action. I don't want to make that mistake in determining nonprofit status. If volunteer labor is converted into actual social benefit, I don't care for most purposes if the motivation is real altruism and empathy for others, or belief that it is commanded by a divine being on pain of eternal torture. I only care about actual behavior and actual benefit and actual lack of attached strings.

Where the problem comes in is, I would not regard volunteer ushers and musicians and greeters and lay preachers facilitating a ritualistic gathering extolling the imagined virtues of an invisible interventionist deity, to be a social benefit. Whereas they would probably argue that it is, because it is comforting and centering and positive for people; it reduces their existential angst. Then we'd get into a touche-kicking context about whether those benefits are imagined or illusory or just unsustainable, and compared to what.

For this reason in my ideal world, the whole concept of non-profits goes away. There is really no such thing as a non-profit anyway. Every organization must sustain itself, the only difference is whether any excess of funds are retained or given away. There is nothing inherently beneficial to society about an activity just because the sponsor (supposedly) gives away the profits. Sometimes I think we should just walk away from this whole ho-raw and just quit kidding ourselves that we are ennobled by it. My guess is that just as much if not more good would be accomplished if we quit making false distinctions about whether or not certain favored organizations will be exempt from taxes.

There's no perfect answer of course [sigh].
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
23,856 posts, read 13,683,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annilyna View Post
Ugh, I detest relating atheism to religion. That is why rather than having atheist organizations included under an existing tax code with religions turns me off. I'd rather have the tax code itself changed or expanded. Better yet, I hope that either these religious tax breaks go away entirely, or if we can't have that, make it so that how much money religious organizations get and how they spend or use the money transparent to the public.
I repeat, *any* 501(c)3 organization gets exactly the same tax breaks as churches do - there is nothing at all special about religious organizations in that regard. Right to Life and Planned Parenthood are both regulated under the same tax provisions.

Do some organizations, including but not limited to churches, really push the envelope regarding those regulations? Oh yeah, they sure do.

Edited to add - recent tax returns for any 501(c)3 organization must, by law, be made public. Just call or email them, they must provide you the most recent 3? (IIRC) annual returns. But you will not see the specific names of donors, just the totals from individual donors and organizational donors. In addition, there are organizations which rate nonprofits on how much of their income they actually spend on activities, as opposed to administration and overhead, Guidestar is one.
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:28 PM
 
1,720 posts, read 1,299,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
I live in Utah and as an atheist have not been hassled any more than people living elsewhere. When I first moved here I expect there to be problems but after 15 years there have been relatively few.
It's my understanding the situation is very different in the SE. In the 'deep south', those of us who are openly secular are largely marginalized and derided, even in places like public schools.

For all the flack they get, most Mormons I've met have seemed like really nice people. While I certainly have epistemological disagreements with them, they're very big on volunteering to help the underprivileged, and seem focused on doing good even for those who aren't Mormons.

The deep south has many more fundamentalist evangelicals, so many are hostile to us heathens.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
23,856 posts, read 13,683,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
It's my understanding the situation is very different in the SE. In the 'deep south', those of us who are openly secular are largely marginalized and derided, even in places like public schools.

For all the flack they get, most Mormons I've met have seemed like really nice people. While I certainly have epistemological disagreements with them, they're very big on volunteering to help the underprivileged, and seem focused on doing good even for those who aren't Mormons.

The deep south has many more fundamentalist evangelicals, so many are hostile to us heathens.
Yes, mormons can surprise you. Very conservative personally, but also take the idea of community obligation pretty seriously.

Salt Lake City set themselves a goal of reducing homelessness to zero, and has very nearly succeeded, by taking the radical position that the best way to end homelessness is to give homeless people homes.

Salt Lake City a model for S.F. on homeless solutions - SFGate
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:13 PM
 
1,720 posts, read 1,299,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Salt Lake City set themselves a goal of reducing homelessness to zero, and has very nearly succeeded, by taking the radical position that the best way to end homelessness is to give homeless people homes.

Salt Lake City a model for S.F. on homeless solutions - SFGate
I read about that, and The Daily Show did a piece on it. I think it's wonderful. It's not only humane, but also practical: Providing a home for formerly homeless person costs about $10-12K annually, whereas it costs about twice as much when he/she is living on the street because of all the associated legal and medical costs (police and jail costs, and visits to the ER).

Sometimes the simplistic the solution really is the best. What's next? Providing free health care for those who need it?
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