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Old 01-18-2008, 07:19 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,409,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
I'm curious what dictates your right and wrong?

Nature?

Government laws?

God? (Just seeing if you are awake. )

I'd say the Golden Rule is a good basis. It seems to be the core of all social structures across all cultures. And it works. Conflicts arise when someone violates it. Harmony continues as long as it's observed.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:02 AM
 
7,099 posts, read 27,104,376 times
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Is Common Sense a bygone trait? It stands to reason that if I live in a certain way, good or bad, moral or immoral, then I am giving that right to everyone else.

If I think it's OK to steal, or murder, then I am giving you the right to steal and murder. This is COMMON SENSE. It doesn't require a belief in any kind of deity to work out that it's a benefit to control selfish wants. It's called "Setting a good example" to others. It can pay off in this life. It doesn't have to wait until after death for a reward.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:51 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 13,229,165 times
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I would say, other than my training by parent, the US Constitution forms the basis for my ethics. Your rights end where my rights begin and vice versa. Certainly not some capricious god. At any rate, I formed my ethos at an early age by thinking, reading, and thinking some more about how the world works and my part in it. Religion very soon started looking very immoral as well as unsupportable to any logical analysis.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Oz
2,238 posts, read 9,731,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoAdrian View Post
It's fun for a while, but it gets old fast. I used to hang out at Yahoo! Answers, on the religion/spirituality forum. I went there mostly to discuss Buddhism, and to see if people had any answers about spirituality that I might be able to help with. But 99% of the time, the conversation got hijacked by Christians who were interested in nothing but trying to bait atheists (or, as they always seemed to call them, "Athiest," always capped, always with the letters transposed, always singular) with the same tired questions, over and over and over. (My favorite, which came up at least once an hour, was "Athiest: Why are you here?" As if people can't have an interest in spirituality without believing in the Christian God.) No answer, however well articulated, ever seemed to be good enough. After a while, you just stop trying and burn out on the whole thing, because you realize they aren't there to ask questions and learn ... they're just there to badger and needle people. WWJD?
What's even more interesting (and fun!!) is that a lot of atheists know the christian bible a hell of a lot better than the christians themselves. Personally, I've read the bible three times and many other religions' equivalent texts. I find them quite fascinating, albeit fantastical.
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:05 PM
 
1,969 posts, read 6,371,780 times
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Where do theists get their "objective" morality? The bible?
Which of these morals do you follow from the bible (if you don't, you don't believe in objective morality either, you pick and choose):
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Come on, face it, we all pick and choose using our common sense and the rules/guidelines set by our parents and society.
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:36 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 13,229,165 times
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It is just such directives that turned me off from turning to the bible as a guide for morality. Good post Jake dog.

It sounds very similar to Sharia Law which is generally considered barbaric and cruel by western societies. But then, Mohammad based the Koran on the Torah. I'll take our modern secular humanism any day over religious directives. Much more humane.
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:21 PM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,884 posts, read 20,323,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
What's even more interesting (and fun!!) is that a lot of atheists know the christian bible a hell of a lot better than the christians themselves. Personally, I've read the bible three times and many other religions' equivalent texts. I find them quite fascinating, albeit fantastical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
Where do theists get their "objective" morality? The bible?
Which of these morals do you follow from the bible (if you don't, you don't believe in objective morality either, you pick and choose):
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Come on, face it, we all pick and choose using our common sense and the rules/guidelines set by our parents and society.
Either one of you familiar with Mosaic Law? Since, I mean, you're so familiar with the Bible and all.

If you were even remotely familiar, you'd know that Paul tells us in his Epistles (found in the New Testament) that we as Christians are no longer under Mosaic Law and that to live our lives under it any longer would be a fall from Grace, as we are in the Age of Grace, currently, due to his crucifixion.

From carmical.net:

"The parts of the Law that have been rendered obsolete are those that contain ordinances. An ordinance is either a memorial of something that has already passed or a type of something in the future. The Old Testament laws containing ordinances were not meant to be permanent. There are no ordinances in the Ten Commandment Law."


This is a great book that explains more:

Amazon.com: Paul and the Mosaic Law: Books: Durham-Tubingen Research Symposium on Earliest Christianity and Judaism (3rd : 1994 : University of Durham),James D. G. Dunn

I always thought it was kinda funny how atheists and agnostics give more credit and respect to those who read and believe the Koran than those who read and believe the Bible. But, I'm sure someone here has some sort of justification for that kind of hypocrisy, right?
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 13,229,165 times
Reputation: 2192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
I always thought it was kinda funny how atheists and agnostics give more credit and respect to those who read and believe the Koran than those who read and believe the Bible. But, I'm sure someone here has some sort of justification for that kind of hypocrisy, right?
On what do you base this accusation? Atheists reject all religions as man made fantasies. The Koran was based on the Torah. The first Muslims were so close to Jews of the time that the Jews considered them another sect of Judiasm.
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:50 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,409,504 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
Either one of you familiar with Mosaic Law? Since, I mean, you're so familiar with the Bible and all.

If you were even remotely familiar, you'd know that Paul tells us in his Epistles (found in the New Testament) that we as Christians are no longer under Mosaic Law and that to live our lives under it any longer would be a fall from Grace, as we are in the Age of Grace, currently, due to his crucifixion.

From carmical.net:

"The parts of the Law that have been rendered obsolete are those that contain ordinances. An ordinance is either a memorial of something that has already passed or a type of something in the future. The Old Testament laws containing ordinances were not meant to be permanent. There are no ordinances in the Ten Commandment Law."


This is a great book that explains more:

Amazon.com: Paul and the Mosaic Law: Books: Durham-Tubingen Research Symposium on Earliest Christianity and Judaism (3rd : 1994 : University of Durham),James D. G. Dunn
While it's nice that someone as esteemed as Paul has made comforting statements in regards to the Old Testaments laws, Jesus himself had a different viewpoint.

Matthew 5:18

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Quote:
I always thought it was kinda funny how atheists and agnostics give more credit and respect to those who read and believe the Koran than those who read and believe the Bible. But, I'm sure someone here has some sort of justification for that kind of hypocrisy, right?
Where did you come up with that bizarre notion?
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Old 01-19-2008, 04:10 AM
 
58 posts, read 80,228 times
Reputation: 29
No matter a person's personal beliefs or lack thereof, they can still have a sense of right and wrong. Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they don't have morals.
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