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Unread 01-20-2008, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Boise
1,889 posts, read 1,818,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
Okay let me rephrase that.

Does an atheist believe in objective morality? (Right or wrong regardless of whether you believe it or not)

Absolutes regarding right or wrong.

If so, where does that basis for said morality come from?

Nature?

Saying it's from your parents is really not an acceptable answer and will be followed up with "where did they get it from".
well, I do, to the extent that causing harm to others is no good. I suppose you could call it objective...

I'm not much of a fan of absolutes, they are very few and far between and mostly serve to further polarize issues.
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Unread 01-20-2008, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Boise
1,889 posts, read 1,818,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
Wow, um, from...life? Hello? What, do you people live in a cave? It's pretty well known Christians are the most persecuted by atheists. I don't see any atheist groups fighting to get rid of prayer mats given to students with the public's tax dollars. Perhaps you two can enlighten me on that.

I'll have to get back to you on the Matthew verse. Give me a few moments. I think you have taken that out of context, if it is what I think it is.

HAHA! HA! persecuted christians.... that's a good one.
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Unread 01-20-2008, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Boise
1,889 posts, read 1,818,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
My point is the fact that we have objective morals (Things that are right or wrong regardless if you believe it or not does prove we are born of a creator.).
how so. I follow the rules because it is easier that way, sure i could shoplift, but i don't feel like paying the fine. not only that, but I realiz that if i jack something from wal mart, the loss isn't coming out of the walton family fortune, they just jack up the prices and make consumers pay the extra cost. I don't kill people because Because i have felt the pain of a murdered family member and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, ever. it doesn't take much to realize that what goes around comes around. rules aren't here just because some god said so, rules were here long before man made god to be big brother in the sky.


Quote:
Where did these moral values come from? Lets trace it to the beginning of time. My faith says God was there from the beginning and gave his guidance. Yours says it's all by accident or chance and from that we evolved from our surroundings.
Without certain laws and rules, there would be no society. people give up some natural freedoms (such as being able to kill others, or rape others) in exchange for security. Cavemen would have no reason not to kill others, or rape women, or steal from their neighbors. to them it would be less competition, procreation and an easier way...


Quote:
1. The claim here that pedophilia is wrong.

Why? Who says? What if there is a culture out there that you don't know about that where sexual relations between parents and children are a way of entering into a more intimate relationship. (It's happened in the past...why is it wrong now?)

So why is that wrong? Who are you to tell them what they are doing is wrong? Under who's authority?
well, if non christians are the minority, that would mean that there are a lot of christians in prison for molesting kiddies, so i guess the bible isn't a good source of morality either...

Quote:
2. That nature dictacts right and wrong.

Okay, then I ask you this - why is rape wrong? Since we are "evolved" from nature, it happens in nature all the time. Forced copulation is a part of nature. Why is it different for humans? In fact, an arguement can be made that this is how evolution works! The strong survive and procreate and spread THEIR DNA and thus the species gets stronger and "better".

So why is forced sex wrong for humans and no other creature on earth?
as mentioned before, most other creatures don't have a social contract. People have to give up certain freedoms for security of other things. hence we make the contract that i will not rape your wife, if you don't kill me. or i won't steal your food, but you you can't steal mine either. without these laws that we have, there would be no society, and we would live just as you mentioned.

Quote:
3. Hurting other people to get what you want is wrong. Again...why? Who says so? We are supposed relatives to primates and evolved from them. They do it all the time. Suvival of the fittest.

5. Stealing is wrong.
again, I don't hurt you if you don't hurt me, i don't steal from you if you don't steal from me. I don't want to hurt anyone, because A) there is the chance that they can hurt me more. B) I don't want to treat anyone in a manner that i don't want to be treated. C) if i went around hurting people, eventually, i woule meet someone (or a group of someones) that would kill me or something along those lines. as far as inbreeding goes, i've been to the bible belt.

Quote:
Why? Happens all the time in nature. Lion's make a kill and if the hyena out number them, they steal their food. Why is it wrong for us to do the same?

Who says the golden rule is the right way? What if I don't believe that? What if I treat you the way I want to be treated and it's not how you want to be treated?

It's real easy to sit in a nation who's rules and morality were based on the Judeo-Christian mindset and say "it's common sense"...or that "you learned it from your parents." It's another thing to think that if left to your own devices it would still be so.
It happens all the time in humanity also. people work at wal mart for crap wages and the walton family has more money that they can spend in a thousand lifetimes. people do take advantage of others, people do kill others, rape others, molest kiddies etc... so my question is that if the laws come from the bible, these things are the responsibility of christians, since it is their system that out laws and morals come from. If the atheist and his/her morals are so wrong, and never put to use, then their rules, laws and morals haven't had much of an effect on the population at large.
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Unread 01-21-2008, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,645 posts, read 12,738,746 times
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If most US citizens are christian as been loudly professed here, it follows that most people in jail are christians.

So much for high moral character.
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Unread 01-21-2008, 05:09 AM
 
4,079 posts, read 9,368,349 times
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Okay, I don't believe in the Bible, but I am not an atheist either. What defines morality to me, Don't harm anyone and help those in need.

Roaming Red said it better:

Quote:
1: Will it hurt someone else if I do this?
2: Will it hurt me if I do this?
3: Does this go against the law where I live?
But I would add, even if the law where we live is wrong, we do need to obey it.

Lets try to not attack JViello. Maybe he/she will learn something from our answers. Perhaps he/she really needs them. But I would like to know something from JViello. What makes you obey these laws from the Bible? As in why do you obey them?
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Unread 01-21-2008, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Oz
2,238 posts, read 5,956,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
I'm interested in your replies.
Gentle rebuke here, but no you're not really interested in our replies. You're only interested in trying to justify your viewpoint without listening to what we say. I could go on and really rip into you, but at heart I'm basically a very nice person despite the fact that you don't think atheists can be such a thing.

It's obvious that it is not intelligent and rational discussion, but rather confrontation and accusation that you seek. So while I do enjoy a lovely cerebral debate from time to time (especially as it pertains to religion or politics!), I don't think that this is one of those times.
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Unread 01-21-2008, 01:37 PM
 
Location: New England
8,156 posts, read 11,816,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
how so. I follow the rules because it is easier that way, sure i could shoplift,
But who says that's wrong and why? Where did that principle come from? Nature? By evolutionary standards by following along, you would cease to exist over a certain amount of time and the "alpha" mindset would prevail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
not only that, but I realiz that if i jack something from wal mart, the loss isn't coming out of the walton family fortune, they just jack up the prices and make consumers pay the extra cost.
Compassion for others is not taught in nature, and it's not a real strong point in evolution.

So where did that come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
I don't kill people because Because i have felt the pain of a murdered family member and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, ever.
All things aside, I am sorry to hear that. I'll leave this one alone out of respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
rules aren't here just because some god said so, rules were here long before man made god to be big brother in the sky.
So what taught man these "rules? Again, nature doesn't line up with what we consider "morality" any way you look at it and evolution doesn't support things like compassion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Without certain laws and rules, there would be no society. people give up some natural freedoms (such as being able to kill others, or rape others) in exchange for security.
Again, according to whos moral code? Society certainly does condone killing others others at times - what makes it "okay" then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Cavemen would have no reason not to kill others, or rape women, or steal from their neighbors. to them it would be less competition, procreation and an easier way...
First off, where is the proof of these cavemen...but I guess that's another thread.

But lets assume you are correct. What made the "caveman" evolve contrary to the world around him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
well, if non christians are the minority, that would mean that there are a lot of christians in prison for molesting kiddies, so i guess the bible isn't a good source of morality either...
Yes, all Christians are terrible...we know this, thanks. But you didn't answer the question? Why is it wrong? If the child is okay with it, and the parent is okay with it? What makes it wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
as mentioned before, most other creatures don't have a social contract. People have to give up certain freedoms for security of other things. hence we make the contract that i will not rape your wife, if you don't kill me. or i won't steal your food, but you you can't steal mine either. without these laws that we have, there would be no society, and we would live just as you mentioned.
And my case is, this is all contrary to our natural surroundings which according to you and your beliefs we evolved from...so what makes "mankind" so special?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
as far as inbreeding goes, i've been to the bible belt.
I guess your "moral contract" doesn't include civilized debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
people do take advantage of others, people do kill others, rape others, molest kiddies etc...
Exactly! So what makes it wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
so my question is that if the laws come from the bible, these things are the responsibility of christians, since it is their system that out laws and morals come from.
You are confusing objective morality with ability. Just because someone can't live up to something or doesn't believe something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is null.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
If most US citizens are christian as been loudly professed here, it follows that most people in jail are christians.

So much for high moral character.
Yes we are all terrible...thanks for reaffirming that again. Perhaps we should be put to death so the world will be cured of it's ills.

Now...Care to partake in the debate or are you just here for a drive-by?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessaka View Post
Okay, I don't believe in the Bible, but I am not an atheist either. What defines morality to me, Don't harm anyone and help those in need.
But that goes completely against what nature and evolution teaches? All one has to do is look around. So where does a "moral code" contrary to our given nature and world come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jessaka View Post
Lets try to not attack JViello. Maybe he/she will learn something from our answers. Perhaps he/she really needs them. But I would like to know something from JViello. What makes you obey these laws from the Bible? As in why do you obey them?
Thanks. Just like the "atheist" I'm using my "free thinking" and "logic" to try and figure out why, if God doesn't exist would things contrary to our world be in place? It just doesn't make sense to me, and perhaps someone can share their reasoning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
Gentle rebuke here, but no you're not really interested in our replies. You're only interested in trying to justify your viewpoint without listening to what we say. It's obvious that it is not intelligent and rational discussion, but rather confrontation and accusation that you seek.
See the above posts...I think you are wrong.

But I do find it funny and hypocritical that you accuse me of being a "confrontation and accusation" seeker when I can count on both hands and feet the number of posts made by athiests in the last few days doing just that towards Christianity.

Do you denounce their "antagonistic" posts as well?
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Unread 01-21-2008, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Oz
2,238 posts, read 5,956,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
But I do find it funny and hypocritical that you accuse me of being a "confrontation and accusation" seeker when I can count on both hands and feet the number of posts made by athiests in the last few days doing just that towards Christianity.

Do you denounce their "antagonistic" posts as well?
I disagree with unjustifiable aggression, and I stand by my previous comment. It would only be hypocritical of me if I were the one making confrontational and accusational posts towards Christianity, which I do not believe I have ever done.

In fact, if you will actually read and comprehend my posts, you will see that I have espoused the idea that everyone's beliefs are different and it is only when you graciously accept and realize that as reality that you are truly enlightened.

I have no problem with someone believing in a higher power if that's what they want and need to do. But, your religious beliefs don't apply to me and have no bearing on the way I live my life and make my decisions because I'm completely secure with how I am.

I honestly don't think you want to listen, you want to argue, and I'm just not interested in doing that.
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Unread 01-21-2008, 02:18 PM
 
Location: New England
8,156 posts, read 11,816,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
I disagree with unjustifiable aggression, and I stand by my previous comment.
So you do think their posts are wrong too then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoaminRed View Post
It would only be hypocritical of me if I were the one making confrontational and accusational posts towards Christianity, which I do not believe I have ever done.
Correct, I was lumping you in with all atheists (You know how they lump all of us "Christians" into one bucket)...my apologies.

Quote:
I honestly don't think you want to listen, you want to argue, and I'm just not interested in doing that.
We disagree. I hope you can respect that too.

Regards,
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Unread 01-21-2008, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Boise
1,889 posts, read 1,818,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
But who says that's wrong and why?
I think that perhaps we are complicating things more than needed.

My basic statement was that any society requires a system of laws and rules in order to function. they all need more or less the same basic laws or rules (murder, theft, all the goodies...)

It doesn't take any form of genius to see that rampant theft would lead to a society that never worked, rampant murder would lessen the population and threaten the lives of others. so if i don't threaten your life and you don't threaten mine we can now both work together on other things that may better ourselves.

Plus, having a good deed or two on my conscience doesn't hurt.

there isn't much of a reason that compassion can't fit in with evolution. After all, TOE does say we evolved from animals, does it not? why should it be such a stretch to say that if we have higher forms of society that we need different way of day to day living with others?

As far as the feeling as to why it's wrong, would you like it if someone beat on you with a tire iron? raped a family member? shot your mom?...
You know that you don't like things like this right? why should it be so much of a stretch for you to realize that these things suck, and you don't wish to do these things to others?

Why is this so hard?
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