Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
With the "feral" child I assume you are talking about the "dog kids"...How does that show compassion? Those same dogs would tear the kid apart if he didn't conform to their social structure (If the kid tried to take food from one of them forcefully say) - which, fits right into the natural surrounds that we as humans exist and believe contrary too. Forced copulation is a part of their culture as well. Are you also saying that women are prepared to "breed" at their first period? Nature does. So why not humans?
This thread has been chasing a red herring for the last few pages so let me pull is all right back to the original thoughts then.
"Morality" as we know it, is contrary to the "evolution" and "nature" around us. Why would we as humans "evolve" contrary to our surroundings?
It just doesn't make sense.
Unless someone can tell me why something like parents and children having intimate sexual contact is wrong besides saying "because it is" or why we would have "compassion" when it's found nowhere in nature or why forced copulation is wrong when it happens in nature all the time, to me, proves we are unique creatures created as we are and NOT a product of evolution as many say.
The very fact that "right or wrong" exists wether we believe it or not (Objective morality) shows there is a law at work beyond ourselves.
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Feral children have been "adopted" by wolves, wild dogs, bears and apparently other animals too ( though some listings are more folk-tales than anything).
What could have been a tasty treat was seen by those particular animals as "in need" and vulnerable and adopted despite being utterly useless to the pack . Nature and Nurture working side by side.
Natural law as some people understand it would dictate that the weakest link is disposed of or abandoned , yet for whatever reasons these did not happen. They should have been torn apart and eaten by right.
A baby left to die in the wilderness would most likely be eaten by scavengers. Why do some animals feel a sense of responsibility and nurturing to Feral Children ? Maybe it is just an incomprehensible imperative, some Animal psychologists have ventured the thought that an animal who has lost a cub could see the "baby" as a substitute.
There was a young woman in the French Pyrenees in the 19th century who was taken in by bears , she had no ability to provide for the group, could not hunt and was just another mouth to feed with no gain for the group at all.
Yet they looked after her, fed her and gave her shelter. She became one of them and was accepted as part of the group despite her natural shortcomings such as complete lack of survival skills in a harsh environment.
If that does not show a certain natural empathy and compassion, then I don't know what does.
I am not saying these animals have the same ability to empathise or feel as humans but a certain glimpse of natural "morality" ( for a want of a better word) is there IMHO anyway .
Animals mostly kill for food not pleasure ( I said MOSTLY before you jump down my throat). That is based on natural instinct not empathy and yet why don't animals just kill just for the heck of it ? Because it serves no purpose, is a waste of precious energy, because killing is not pleasurable to them ? I don't know.
Because god made them like that to some, to me because there is a natural law stronger than any other one. One guided by survival and need rather than being "mindlessly violent". A "moral" imperative not to waste perhaps ?
To me we humans know things instinctively. I see small children( babies) who do naughty things and they KNOW. Not because their parents has told them but because of an innate moral compass.
Like not having sex with your off-spring ( as it weakens the blood-line and is a perfect example of self preservation of the species).
Environment is a huge part of how our moral sense is developed there is no doubt of that ( and as environment means culture, it does also involve some religious background to it as most cultures were until recently less secular than they are now).
Natural law is not something we understand yet , it does not mean that its complexities are a denial or negation of evolution. Survival of the fittest still does not stop Elephants from trying to shield their deads, covering them with leaves and showing grief and distress as we would at the funeral of a relative. They remember their dead when it serves no "natural" function. Does this mean god exists and evolution is a fallacy because of this ? Not to me.
Evolution is far more complex than we will ever understand IMO and because not all of Natural law is about purely self-preservation and survival does not mean it is a fallacy.
I believe in Evolution, I believe in species which have evolved, adapted to their environments for millions of years, yet I also believe that Natural law is far wider and more complex than the generalisations people want to limit it to. The Animal Kingdom is a good example of that. Morality as understand it is a human construct but one which to me is in-built AS WELL as developed with contact with others human beings.
We observe people around us and mimic their behaviour but also our moral compass is to a certain degree natural and something we all possess.
I also believe we can be stripped of it by neglect, abuse and lack of human contact.
We too are guided by natural imperatives but we have a conscience and an intellect and emotional intelligence which allows us to grasp seemingly difficult concepts. Still we are guided by "nature" such as lust and self-preservation. We fight our impulses but they are there nonetheless. Man as animal is still very much there.
Do I see than hand of god in it , NO.
We get our sense of morals in my opinion mainly through our environment and feral children children are the prefect example of how important human contact is to human intellectual , mental and moral development. Most of those kids do turn out to be completely bereft of empathy and cannot relate to other human beings when back in "civilisation".
So in that sense I completely agree that morality is a very human trait and has little to do with the animal mind. But as I mentioned before I think there is more to compassion and empathy than just the human way we comprehend it.
This does not mean I attribute it to divine intervention or a greater plan. I do not fully understand it , but I still believe it is there as a natural occurrence.
What all this proves about the existence of a god , I do not see though.
The Nature versus Nurture argument will go on forever I suspect , as far as I'm concerned it's a bit of both. We are shaped by our environment and enriched by it , we can never develop fully without full interaction with others, and yet IMO the moral compass is something we all possess as an in-built feature.
It just needs to be activated and nurtured. But it is there, without religious moral guidance. Maybe because being "good" is actually better for us than being "bad". Not as individuals ( where morality let's face it gets in the way) but as a specie.
Some people are brought up in appalling surroundings, battered, abused, raped, beaten and treated with utter disrespect. Never shown any compassion, empathy, love or kindness. Yet they turn into loving, kind , sympathetic people without any help from religion and with no positive examples around them.
This to some indicates a greater being, to me it only shows a natural ability and a resilience to overcome circumstances.
Animals and humans are not as different as we would like to believe. We may have more tools in our favour but the natural imperative is still very strong in us. Our conscience and sense of morality is something most of us struggle with on a daily basis. The tool box is bigger but I am not sure where god fits into that.
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Zarathustra?
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