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Old 05-17-2015, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,338 posts, read 8,256,655 times
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“Finally, the question of authentic faith—is a particularly sore topic for many Millennials—who are often leaving church due in large part to the hypocrisy they experience. Again, no research is a perfect measure, but this study points out a sobering possibility: that the perception so many young people have of Christians contains more than a kernel of truth. Just as the New Testament writer Paul demonstrates in Galatians 2:11-16, the responsibility of the Christian community is to challenge hypocrisy just as boldly as other kinds of sin.“

https://www.barna.org/culture-articl...merican-donors

It's pretty common to observe that a big reason why people fall away from religion is their experience with religious people.

I'm not sure whether their methodology is up to standard, but an interesting read.
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Old 05-17-2015, 04:18 PM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,017,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Quote -

“Finally, the question of authentic faith—is a particularly sore topic for many Millennials—who are often leaving church due in large part to the hypocrisy they experience. Again, no research is a perfect measure, but this study points out a sobering possibility: that the perception so many young people have of Christians contains more than a kernel of truth. Just as the New Testament writer Paul demonstrates in Galatians 2:11-16, the responsibility of the Christian community is to challenge hypocrisy just as boldly as other kinds of sin.“

https://www.barna.org/culture-articl...merican-donors

It's pretty common to observe that a big reason why people fall away from religion is their experience with religious people.

I'm not sure whether their methodology is up to standard, but an interesting read.
not many do.
What is true is that the more "real" hope one has the less they need "false" hope.
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Old 05-17-2015, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,099,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
It's pretty common to observe that a big reason why people fall away from religion is their experience with religious people.
Yes that is the major issue cited by many. But there are of course people who leave the faith for entirely different reasons. I am one.

While I certainly met Moderator cut: deletedwithin the faith, I have met them out of it. I never felt it was a great idea to demand that people be perfect. I would be content with them being simply better. From inside the faith I had a confirmation bias that told me that was the case; now that I'm out of the faith I don't see any evidence at all that that the so-called "new creation" that one is supposed to become when you embrace the Christian god actually is real.

In other words Christianity is no antidote for the human condition.

Some Christians, especially liberals, understand this and work with it. Evangelicals do not. A transformative narrative is central to their value proposition. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation. Old things are passed away; all things are become new".

Last edited by june 7th; 05-17-2015 at 08:58 PM.. Reason: Attempting to get around word filter.
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Old 05-17-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,162 posts, read 18,609,914 times
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Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post

I'm not sure whether their methodology is up to standard, ....
It isn't, the construction of the poll is subjective, not scientific.

In producing their list of Jesus do's and don'ts, they have actually produced a list of their interpretations of the gospels. I detected what might be fairly described as a modern, somewhat leftist bias. Their's is a work of personal assumptions, such as:
Quote:
I listen to others to learn their story before telling them about my faith.
That radiates modern pc manners, but does it truly reflect Jesus? Where in the gospels is there a scene of Jesus listening to someone trying to convert him? Jesus preaches, he isn't conducting Socratic dialogues.

What is ultimately being measured isn't so much congruency with Jesus, rather it is congruency or opposition to the poll designer's model of Jesus as viewed through a 21st Century perspective.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
It isn't, the construction of the poll is subjective, not scientific.

In producing their list of Jesus do's and don'ts, they have actually produced a list of their interpretations of the gospels. I detected what might be fairly described as a modern, somewhat leftist bias. Their's is a work of personal assumptions, such as:

That radiates modern pc manners, but does it truly reflect Jesus? Where in the gospels is there a scene of Jesus listening to someone trying to convert him? Jesus preaches, he isn't conducting Socratic dialogues.

What is ultimately being measured isn't so much congruency with Jesus, rather it is congruency or opposition to the poll designer's model of Jesus as viewed through a 21st Century perspective.

I'm not sure how you would construct any questions in a survey like this that didn't depend on the pollster's interpretation of the gospels - in other words, which questions are the most important to ask? I don't know what groundwork, if any, went into their formulation of the questions, and they don't describe it.

Which 10 questions would you ask in determining whether a person has more jesus-like or pharisee-like attitudes/actions?

But in exploring the site, they seemed to be very focussed on helping clergy convert more people into bible-believing christians. That seems to me to make them unlikely leftists.
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
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Oh good, I needed research to confirm to me
Christians don't think like Jesus.

Still laughing!!!!
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:05 AM
 
493 posts, read 310,684 times
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Everybody is a sinner, and no human being is ever perfect apart from Jesus Christ/God, that's what we believe.
Indeed, Adam and Eve were sinners.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,338 posts, read 8,256,655 times
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Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
Oh good, I needed research to confirm to me
Christians don't think like Jesus.

Still laughing!!!!
I didn't need someone else's research to point this out to me either!

The reason this conclusion is significant is that it is reached by a *christian* polling group whose stated mission is to provide practical marketing advice to those who are trying to turn more people into bible-believers.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,162 posts, read 18,609,914 times
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Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post

Which 10 questions would you ask in determining whether a person has more jesus-like or pharisee-like attitudes/actions?
That is not something I would not attempt because I recognize in advance it would be trolling for congruency with my interpretation of the gospels, which would reflect the influence or the scholarship I have read.

Ultimately we can only guess what the ministry of Jesus was about as Jesus himself conceived it. He left behind no writings of his own, we are entirely reliant on the viewpoints of people who never met Jesus, but wrote down, and edited, the oral traditions and gossip about him which had been floating around the region for three decades plus, incorporating their own agendas as they worked.

If we see Jesus as someone who was largely concerned with Jewish affairs only, not as someone out to launch an enduring church, if we see Jesus as someone who fully expected that his death would bring about Judgement Day for all within the lifetimes of his audience..then ten questions searching for congruency with that among modern Christians would be pressed to find any matches.

The above represents a consensus view of Jesus being advanced by a number of modern scholars, most prominent among them being Bart Ehrman. I would not insist that this is the only possible correct view, but I do see it as the best conclusion extracted from the best evidence available. There seems little, if any relationship between that view and modern Christian practices.
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Old 05-20-2015, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,338 posts, read 8,256,655 times
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
That is not something I would not attempt because I recognize in advance it would be trolling for congruency with my interpretation of the gospels, which would reflect the influence or the scholarship I have read.

Ultimately we can only guess what the ministry of Jesus was about as Jesus himself conceived it. He left behind no writings of his own, we are entirely reliant on the viewpoints of people who never met Jesus, but wrote down, and edited, the oral traditions and gossip about him which had been floating around the region for three decades plus, incorporating their own agendas as they worked.

If we see Jesus as someone who was largely concerned with Jewish affairs only, not as someone out to launch an enduring church, if we see Jesus as someone who fully expected that his death would bring about Judgement Day for all within the lifetimes of his audience..then ten questions searching for congruency with that among modern Christians would be pressed to find any matches.

The above represents a consensus view of Jesus being advanced by a number of modern scholars, most prominent among them being Bart Ehrman. I would not insist that this is the only possible correct view, but I do see it as the best conclusion extracted from the best evidence available. There seems little, if any relationship between that view and modern Christian practices.
I'd certainly agree that Jesus was most likely a different person than most ordinary American Christians conceive him to be!

But I think you could develop a survey instrument that would reflect the difference between those widely held beliefs and how many Christians act. I think more questions would help.
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