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However I do believe in a higher power because I've witness death and I've saw someone living and 30 minutes later they're dead. The body was just there and lifeless so there is something within us whether it's a soul, spirit, or whatever that controls what our body does. There's also been situations that by chance I've avoided for some reason or another, like I'm on my way out the door but realized I left my phone. So I went back inside to get it and then when I finally do leave I come across a car accident that had I left when I initially tried too before realizing I left my phone, it could have been me that was involved in the accident.
All you're saying here is that you believe there is some sort of supreme being because humans are mortal.
I've seen lots of death including my own wife and have never seen a connection between observable aspects of death and any sort of deity. You're completely losing me here.
It is also self evident that some deaths occur due to random happenstance and you could be one of them. What does that have to do with a deity? If you narrowly elude an accident (or think it likely you have), does that in any way shape or form influence the existence or nonexistence of any actor? Or does it influence your perceived NEED for a deity?
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Originally Posted by Shysister
I have also manifested things in my life that something made it possible for it to happen, can't really say what or if it is indeed god
Yeah, that was you. Not too complicated.
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Originally Posted by Shysister
I pride myself on doing things morally right and I don't need a book to tell me how to do that. I know what's right, wrong, and what I could go to jail for. If I kill someone, god can forgive me if I ask for forgiveness but the law of the land says I have to go to prison or get the death penalty. God nor religion will save me from the punishment of the crime I committed whether I ask to be forgiven or not and will still have face the consciences. Religion just doesn't make sense to me and I've stopped making excuses for something that obviously has no real merit.
It isn't uncommon to misidentify religion as the bulk or entirety of the problem and still hold on to some form of theism. In this case you are not an atheist; at most you are an agnostic theist. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with you. But it will be helpful whatever your path to be clear on that point. Can't tell for sure if you are.
Many of us are inclined to be credulous about deities, it is a common confirmation bias called "agency inference" and this is usually at least in part informed by one not having dealt with the fact of one's own mortality. Might I recommend you read Ernest Becker's final work, The Denial of Death, to think more deeply about this issue. If you're the impatient type you can ignore his fawning and frequent sidebars about his hero, Sigmund Freud, but otherwise it's a superb book and one of the reasons is that it was written by a man who was actively dying and knew it.
We form such close bonds with the people in our lives, and when one of them dies it is incomprehensible that we will never see them again. Belief in an afterlife is as old as mankind, so I wonder if it is a way to protect ourselves from the pain of losing loved ones, and from the uncertainty and finality of our own death.
We form such close bonds with the people in our lives, and when one of them dies it is incomprehensible that we will never see them again. Belief in an afterlife is as old as mankind, so I wonder if it is a way to protect ourselves from the pain of losing loved ones, and from the uncertainty and finality of our own death.
Sure it is. I just haven't personally found it the least bit comforting.
My 2nd wife, my parents, my oldest brother, several close friends ... I will never see them again and some fantasy that they will be waiting for me in some asserted realm that's somehow pain free when this one for some reason can't be free of pain, does nothing to take away from how much I miss them or the completely out-of-band way in which many of them departed. I, my sister in law, my siblings etc have all mourned and moved on, literally having to accept the unacceptable in order to function. Sometimes you can pull this off pretty well, sometimes it results in permanent emotional muting. It is sub-optimal. I can see why telling yourself you will see them again is a way to deny the reality and feel less bad about it. It just has limited utility for me. I do better by seeing death as simply part of life, not personal, and realizing that I am not entitled to a smoother ride because I believe in some deity -- nor am I entitled to an infinitely extended consciousness and some sort of closure or resolution beyond the veil.
We form such close bonds with the people in our lives, and when one of them dies it is incomprehensible that we will never see them again. Belief in an afterlife is as old as mankind, so I wonder if it is a way to protect ourselves from the pain of losing loved ones, and from the uncertainty and finality of our own death.
yes, in part foo shoo. Religion relieves some angst. To base it solely on this, for or against, is woefully short sighted. Like the dopes that think religion is only about control. stupid is as stupid says.
I was raised Catholic but at about age twelve I became interested in the mythology of the ancient Romans, Greeks and Egyptians and realized that those people believed just as fervently in those religions as modern people do in theirs. The thought that occurred to me was "They all claim(ed) to be the only true religion and that all the others are wrong. But if even one is wrong, that means they can all be wrong, because none of them have any more proof than all the others... which is none whatsoever."
At that point, all religious stories became merely that: stories. Personally I think a polytheistic religion is more interesting: a pick-your-own-deity smorgasbord, LOL. Maybe one from column A and two from column B, with a minor deity for dessert on particularly rough days...
There has to be a Source (not necessarily a Creator) just a Source for everything that exists. You prefer to accept "We do not know" as your answer for the Source of all that exists (maximum evidence). Theists prefer to credit God as the Source for everything that exists. So to say there is no evidence is silly. There is maximum evidence. You just prefer ignorance (not knowing what or why everything exists) to the label God. You leave ALL the evidence there is in limbo rather than consider it evidence of God.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
What stops there is your willingness to say that the Source that is responsible for everything that exists is sufficient to qualify as God without ANY of the religious nonsense attributed to it. If it cannot be shown to have all the attributes religions confer on it, it cannot BE God. I am less restrictive (primarily because I have PERSONAL evidence of God that you do not have). My belief came without any attributes other than unconditional love and acceptance. It is clear from science that it is ubiquitous, awesomely powerful and controls the processes of existence with laws. That is enough for you to consider it natural, but not to consider it God. That is where we differ.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
What made you start to disbelieve God's existence? Education... and the rejection of wilful ignorance.
Well, Raf, speaking about willfulignorance, care explain your unabashed acceptance of your willful ignorance about the Source of everything as "We don't know" while having the temerity to proclaim that whatever it is it is NOT God.
I didn't read all the pages, but for me, it was being educated. Both about religions of the world and throughout history and about science and nature. The more I learned about either, the more I believed that the concept of a higher power was completely made up to make us feel better and to explain what we didn't understand.
I might have believed when I was very young, the same way kids believe in other mythical creatures, but I don't remember ever believing. From the time I can first remember, I remember at least having serious doubts.
As I have gotten older, I have advanced through having doubts to being sure there is no "god" in the sense of any ancient or modern Earth religion. There is a lot we don't understand about the universe, but the concept of "god" is a man made creation, and not necessary to find those explanations for things we don't yet understand.
Well, Raf, speaking about willfulignorance, care explain your unabashed acceptance of your willful ignorance about the Source of everything as "We don't know" while having the temerity to proclaim that whatever it is it is NOT God.
It appears that you do not know the difference between 'ignorance' and 'wilful ignorance'. I'll happily explain it to you on Sunday or Monday because in two hours I'm off sking and spending those two hours trying to explain logic and reason to someone that thinks angels are real is just not on my 'things to do before I go' list.
It appears that you do not know the difference between 'ignorance' and 'wilful ignorance'. I'll happily explain it to you on Sunday or Monday because in two hours I'm off sking and spending those two hours trying to explain logic and reason to someone that thinks angels are real is just not on my 'things to do before I go' list.
Hope you have a nice time. And I'll be happy to hand the task of exposing Mystic's clumsy strawman accusations about our position and plonking faith claims about his to someone else.
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