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OK, so I'm in the process of becoming an atheist after spending my whole life as an evangelical literalist Christian.
The problem I am having, and this last hurdle I can't seem to get over, is Jesus. Maybe it's because I've spent most of my life thinking I have some sort of personal relationship with him and therefore feel close to this imaginary friend I've created for myself. Obviously, I don't believe too strongly, and it's been quite a while since I prayed or sang or did anything religious really. But, even after I have come to terms with most if not all of the bible being a collection of antiquated myths and sexist books and not the inspired word of god, I can't get over Jesus. In my mind, Jesus is still better and more perfect than the Bible, so while the bible is flawed, Jesus is not. But, then all of the information I get about Jesus and his characteristics, qualities, etc., comes from the Bible. So how can that be that the Bible is hogwash but Jesus isn't. Obviously, it can't. So... help me... I already don't believe in the Bible. Why should I NOT believe in Jesus?
I would also appreciate any deconversion stories you may want to share. I wish I could snap my fingers and stop believing everything. I'm guessing it's a process for most, and sometimes a rather long one.
Thank you.
There is nothing wrong with believing in Jesus-as a person. I do believe he existed. I look at him as the Martin Luther King Jr. of his day. He was a preacher who taught peace & love. And those are good things. Should he be worshiped? I don't think so. I don't think ANYONE should be worshiped. Should he be admired? Yes. And maybe be used as an example as to how to live.
OK, so I'm in the process of becoming an atheist after spending my whole life as an evangelical literalist Christian.
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysteriousjane
The problem I am having, and this last hurdle I can't seem to get over, is Jesus ... even after I have come to terms with most if not all of the bible being a collection of antiquated myths and sexist books and not the inspired word of god, I can't get over Jesus. In my mind, Jesus is still better and more perfect than the Bible, so while the bible is flawed, Jesus is not. But, then all of the information I get about Jesus and his characteristics, qualities, etc., comes from the Bible. So how can that be that the Bible is hogwash but Jesus isn't. Obviously, it can't. So... help me... I already don't believe in the Bible. Why should I NOT believe in Jesus?
Which Jesus? An historical Jesus? Or the Biblical, miracle-working, god-man Jesus? One can believe that Jesus was a real individual, but not divine. Or that he was a composite character. Or that the gospel narratives are an embellishment. Or ... and this is where I eventually landed ... that he's probably a complete invention. I have addressed my reasoning a number of times and won't repeat it here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysteriousjane
I would also appreciate any deconversion stories you may want to share. I wish I could snap my fingers and stop believing everything. I'm guessing it's a process for most, and sometimes a rather long one.
Gradual from roughly age 35 to 48 and probably took me a good 5 years after that to pry the last of the theistic memes out of my head with a metaphorical crowbar. I'm 58 now.
It's a very individual thing. The catalyst for me was multiple deaths in my immediate family that were not amenable to prayer. I could overlook the indifferent / unconvincing "responses" to prayer, the unfulfilled "promises of god" on a mundane daily basis, more or less, but when I hoarded my poker chips for when I really, REALLY needed them or people I loved and cared about would suffer / die ... still nothing. It usually takes something major like that to shake you out of your slumber.
Of course the initial catalyst is nothing compared to the far better reasons to not believe / not need religious ideology to provide faux comfort. It's only a starting-point. As you get distance from the "reality distortion field" around faith-based thinking, you gain an increasing respect for things you have been taught all your life to distrust or outright avoid / disparage. Rational argument, the scientific method, reasonable evidentiary standards, using your (god-given ... ha!) intellect rather than disavowing it. Learning that faith is a failed epistemology that does not tend to lead one to actual truth. And so forth.
One thing that's been helpful to me, not to put too fine a point on it, has been learning to get over myself. Much of fundamentalist thinking is quite self-centered, placing one at the center of a dramatic narrative with you as the hero(ine) ... your struggle with sin, your need for a savior / relationship with god, your personal relationship with the creator and sustainer of the universe ... your absolution, your regeneration, your victory, and on and on.
Life isn't all about me ... or even AT ALL about me. This is deflating, when you've been used to thinking otherwise, but it takes a huge burden off you. The burden to be Right (usually at the expense of being Happy!) ... the burden to maintain appearances ... the burden to hide from / deny much of what constitutes your self ... the burden to "make nice" and "not make waves" with other people, even when they're being controlling or just complete posterior orifices.
One thing I've noticed seems particularly problematic for fundamentalists is having and maintaining healthy personal boundaries. So many are so beaten down / porous and lack a real center to themselves, a clear awareness of their own opinions / likes / dislikes and the ability to stand up for them. There's a strong tendency to confuse simple disagreement or even passive lack of agreement with personal assault or even annihilation. It made me overly sensitive to others, overly deferential, and generally wussy. I have largely gotten over that.
A few random thoughts for what they are worth. You are on a journey of growth and change ... give yourself time and be patient with yourself. Mourn your losses, too ... just because it's nearly pure BS doesn't mean you won't miss it. It's the familiar, the comfortable, in some ways ... it is a fulcrum of social connections you're losing.
OK, so I'm in the process of becoming an atheist after spending my whole life as an evangelical literalist Christian.
The problem I am having, and this last hurdle I can't seem to get over, is Jesus. Maybe it's because I've spent most of my life thinking I have some sort of personal relationship with him and therefore feel close to this imaginary friend I've created for myself. Obviously, I don't believe too strongly, and it's been quite a while since I prayed or sang or did anything religious really. But, even after I have come to terms with most if not all of the bible being a collection of antiquated myths and sexist books and not the inspired word of god, I can't get over Jesus. In my mind, Jesus is still better and more perfect than the Bible, so while the bible is flawed, Jesus is not. But, then all of the information I get about Jesus and his characteristics, qualities, etc., comes from the Bible. So how can that be that the Bible is hogwash but Jesus isn't. Obviously, it can't. So... help me... I already don't believe in the Bible. Why should I NOT believe in Jesus?
I would also appreciate any deconversion stories you may want to share. I wish I could snap my fingers and stop believing everything. I'm guessing it's a process for most, and sometimes a rather long one.
Thank you.
Shouldn't the title of this thread be "my feelings don't make any sense to me?" That might give you cognitive dissonance, but what does logic have to do with your assertion that the full or any character of some real Jesus is bound up within the pages of whatever version of the Pauline Bible (or even the many dozens of Gospels that weren't burned as heresy) you take as a sanctified given?
Bibliolatry is just Bibliolatry, you would be venerating what men (editors and publishers and readers) create: books.
OP: what helped me a lot was to read the perspectives of other people who "deconverted", too. I lurked here quite a bit, and also two books in particular where an immense help to me for making sense of why I couldn't believe the way other people do:
Hope After Faith, by Jerry DeWitt Deconverted, by Seth Andrews
I was right where you are 20 or 25 years ago. What you are feeling is completely normal. I had been raised as an Evangelical Christian although we went to Catholic school because it was the only religious school in the area.
Anyway, I will tell you that your feelings are completely normal. My faith started to falter as I began to study the bible and read it daily for at least a half hour. I had read the Old Testament twice and The New Testament perhaps 4 times not to mention having it drilled into me every day when I was growing up. I truly believed in Jesus and thanked him nightly. Not to mention, my life at the time was going extremely well.
The problem I had was Jesus is God / God is Jesus. That meant that whatever the New Covenant with Jesus' provided, God/Jesus was responsible for all the atrocities in the OT such as slavery, rape, forced marriage, purposely changing people's actions such as "Hardening Pharaoh's heart" so that he would not release the Israelites before the plagues were complete, etc. Not to mention killing every person / animal on earth via Noah. This includes newborn babies or babies in the womb who were innocent.
So I would say it took me 5 years from the time I decided I was an agnostic Atheist to where I didn't think about it almost daily. It had been such a part of my life.
Even now I still have thoughts of hell and what if I'm wrong. But I either died for a little less than a minute or came extremely close and they just weren't getting a reading but the last thing I heard was "Were Loosing Him!" as I tried to stay awake. I was at peace knowing I was dying and while I thought of Heaven and Hell I thought if I have to be judged on why I didn't stay a believer, I would just have to say why didn't you provide more evidence and why were you responsible for such atrocities in the OT and some in the NT.
Anyway, It is normal and it will take some time. There is nothing wrong in taking much of the teachings of Jesus as a moral compass. Most of the beliefs that are attributed to him are still very relevant today.
Who says you do not have to? It is certainly not a requirement of being an atheist. If we assume Jesus was real, and we make no supernatural baseless assumptions about him, then we can still view him as a moral philosopher ahead of him (but behind our) time in many ways.
I see no basis for calling such a man perfect, especially given the source, and you appear to be idolizing him as is normal in our species. Intense Justin Beeber fans also will broke no suggestion he is less than perfect either. We are a species very prone to the personality cult and it is hard to train oneself to be MORE critical of the words of people you idolize rather than be less so, to off set the bias factor your idolization can leave you prone to.
But in essence there is no reason to give up any of the aspects of the Nazarene that are actually of any consequence. You can appraise and parse his moral philosophy against the back drop of moral philosophy that came before, and after, his supposed life span.
There is not a single thing of any useful application to the modern world that requires you to suppose anything supernatural or fantastical about him, let alone godhead or perfection. His utility in annals of moral philosophy stands apart from this and you can view him as being as much a human as you or I. In _this_ sense I would even identify myself as "Christian" in some ways.
There y'go, Jane. There is nothing you need to worry about or Force yourself to do or think. You can just accept where you are and just let it take its course.
I think the theoretical Jesus, whether he existed or not (there is apparently some debate), is actually a pretty fascinating figure. In THEORY, he is the ideal human being in Western culture. How many people live up to his standards though? And was he as flawless as he is portrayed in the Bible, which is secondhand information and heavily edited to boot. Read some of the alternate books of the Bible that were never incorporated into it and you get a slightly different picture.
But if you want to get an interesting perspective on Jesus, I highly recommend Christopher Moore's Lamb. A fun read
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