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300% increase since they turned secular is hardly a coincidental point. And the second point being made is that many of the improvements (LGBT rights, women's rights, and the others) are claimed as a result of atheism.
But ummm, no, actually these are a result of liberals.
I've been in liberal churches. One of them stood in for transgender meetings, attended Pride, and so on. I've read enough history to know that abolitionism came long before atheism. As I say, I don't care about the existence of atheism. I care about the undermining of religion by atheists.
"Living life to the fullest" as I'm sure you'd say. Yeah ummm, I've tried doing everything I can think of that seemed meaningful or fun over the course of my life. I found I was bored, and frustrated because the stuff that seemed to matter most (like having a family), I couldn't do. I felt very lost and adrift. And then I met Jesus. Not "found", met. I could tell you the story, but you honestly wouldn't believe it.
The "opium of the masses"? Yeah, it's a common (Marxist) view of religion. It doesn't hold water either. There are some religious people who need religion because they are hooked on the idea of someone telling them what to do. But there are also people who legitimately came to their faith, and deciding they are crazy, stupid, or lazy for believing the way they do is kinda offensive.
There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself—which is far more complex than the physical Universe—can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.
I guess all of these people are idiots?
There is no "right wing" campaign against atheists, since aside from lone atheists and religions that were religious but non-theistic (Taoism and Buddhism are perfectly acceptable examples), the actual movement of atheism only existed in the past 150 years or so. Possibly less than that. That isn't enough time to form an "evil agenda".
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 12-05-2015 at 11:48 AM..
A coincidental point is not a minor one - it is a question of what the cause really is. And finding meaning in life is up to the individual.
What you say about reasons to posse a cosmic mind "God" is fair enough. We have never said that's not possible. Just that there are other explanations. And that is not quite like organized religion for providing a reason to live - like the next fix.
The point is, the question being why people distrust atheists. That's pretty much why. They look at other countries where atheism is more prevalent and see the results.
Muslims countries on average tend to be more violent.
Christian countries tend to be more diverse (ironically creating competition for themselves).
Buddhist countries tend to be more peaceful.
Hindu countries tend to be socially stratified and classist (blame the caste system)
Shintoism seems to create very nationalistic countries from what we see in Japan
Atheist countries seem to care less about life and death, and value life less
You can lament this, and say it's not true. But this is an observation of statistical averages.
Anyway, the point is, what can be done to improve things? To put together a moral system that is free-standing rather than based on Christian principles, so it can hold up if Christians are gone in those countries.
The point is, the question being why people distrust atheists. That's pretty much why. They look at other countries where atheism is more prevalent and see the results.
Muslims countries on average tend to be more violent.
Christian countries tend to be more diverse (ironically creating competition for themselves).
Buddhist countries tend to be more peaceful.
Hindu countries tend to be socially stratified and classist (blame the caste system)
Shintoism seems to create very nationalistic countries from what we see in Japan
Atheist countries seem to care less about life and death, and value life less
You can lament this, and say it's not true. But this is an observation of statistical averages.
Anyway, the point is, what can be done to improve things? To put together a moral system that is free-standing rather than based on Christian principles, so it can hold up if Christians are gone in those countries.
Fair argument.
Muslims defend themselves by saying that Islam is a religion of peace and they are only defending themselves.
Christians may defend themselves by holding up their hands to an irrelevant point like national diversity, thus directing attention away from what people see as really wrong with them,.
Buddhists indignantly deny that they are 'Peaceful' - why look at Myanmar and Sri Lanka - the dayglo robed bunch are as bad as any.
Hindus defend the caste system by saying it isn't as bad as people make out and it's voluntary anyway.
Shintoists say -that wasn't us - that was somebody else.
Atheists say as I do that you don't need religion to have a meaning in life and suicides in atheist countries must be due to something else. And Stalin and Pol Pot were not Real atheists anyway.
So we all have our excuses. And the 'We need it - true or not' argument is as futile as the 'great atrocity debate'.
The real bottom line is, what on the basis of reason and evidence, is the more likely to be true, religion or non -religion? And as to the public perception of why atheists are regarded as a lower life - form than rapists, while I question your figures (300% increase did you say? Jesus H. Christ, is there anyone left to drive the buses?), I might also question whether that is the reason why we are regarded as lowlife. I'm not sure why but I'd love to do a study, but even amongst people here who only pay lip -service to religion, never go to church apart from three times in their life and have never read the bible in their life will still be uncomfortable when asked about their beliefs, aghast at the idea of deleting church services and holymen at national events and angrily will deny that they are atheists becauuuseee..."They deny a God exists. I don't know, so I'm agnostic, not one of those arrogant atheists".
I think that explaining the case and rationale for atheism and why the afterlife bait is just a con, plus religion has nothing to lose under atheists but its privileges (which means only the churches bosses need worry -not the believers) we could do with more thought about how to run a country than we do. Applying realo Humanism with a dash of pointy -eared logic would - with a bit of public open -mindedness - solve a lot of problems. The only way to counter the bad rap we goddless bastards have is to explain and explain and hopefully get the message over.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-06-2015 at 04:38 AM..
I did a bit of reading on this and it is wise not to leap to convenient conclusions about atheist countries having a high suicide rate or an increase in suicides in atheist countries. One survey indicated that the happiest places have the highest suicide rates. Utah is rather religious and hawaii a happy lifestyle the survey said. They are amongst the highest for suicides.
Japan and China rate high (won't even suggest that the rapid rise in Christianity there had anything to do with it) but so do Latvia Slovenia and Guyana. All predominately religious. South Korea also rates high and that is either Buddhist or Christian.
The study that seemed to have spawned this idea that atheism = suicide is a paper by a couple of Psychiatrists. Their science was called bad science by an atheist reviewer - well of course he would - but he did point up some assumptions that seemed to be flawed. He also pointed to other studies that indicated that atheists led happier, more fulfilled lives, so, while I don't want to just dismiss the study because it provided a handy stick for theism to beat us with, there are too many other factors to be able to leap to this Atheism causes suicide conclusion.
P.s update - China seems to rank about the middle. Sri Lanka rates rather high. The former soviet states recur in the lists. It's just too easy to look for patterns and find 'facts' that confirm what one is looking for.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-06-2015 at 03:57 PM..
I did a bit of reading on this and it is wise not to leap to convenient conclusions about atheist countries having a high suicide rate or an increase in suicides in atheist countries. One survey indicated that the happiest places have the highest suicide rates. Utah is rather religious and hawaii a happy lifestyle the survey said. They are amongst the highest for suicides.
Japan and China rate high (won't even suggest that the rapid rise in Christianity there had anything to do with it) but so do Latvia Slovenia and Guyana. All predominately religious. South Korea also rates high and that is either Buddhist or Christian.
The study that seemed to have spawned this idea that atheism = suicide is a paper by a couple of Psychiatrists. Their science was called bad science by an atheist reviewer - well of course he would - but he did point up some assumptions that seemed to be flawed. He also pointed to other studies that indicated that atheists led happier, more fulfilled lives, so, while I don't want to just dismiss the study because it provided a handy stick for theism to beat us with, there are too many other factors to be able to leap to this Atheism causes suicide conclusion.
P.s update - China seems to rank about the middle. Sri Lanka rates rather high. The former soviet states recur in the lists. It's just too easy to look for patterns and find 'facts' that confirm what one is looking for.
Two nuanced factors that are generally left out of such ruminations:
1) People who deconvert can go through a period of existential angst / depression because the deconversion process knocks out from under them the supports that propped up their optimism and hope. It takes some time to get your brain retrained to think differently but once you do, you actually have a BETTER basis for sanguinity and optimism than before. Now instead of bemoaning the loss of your invisible sky-dwelling enabler and his empty promises, you take a realistic view of life and have realistic expectations about it. No more cognitive dissonance, no more explaining to yourself or anyone else why god blesses the wicked and curses the good, etc. At any rate, atheism needn't ultimately result in nihilism and despair, but can temporarily cause it depending on where you catch someone in their life journey. This isn't because of anything inherent in atheism, but rather it is the sting of the poisonous lies of religion being lanced and leached out of a person at deconversion, combined with their particular psychological strengths / weaknesses and conditioning.
2) Not all suicide is irrational. There IS a thing called "rational suicide" which is not based on depression / despair but on a rational recognition that there is no percentage in carrying on. Such as a person with a fatal or at least painful and incurable disease who knows that past a certain point there is only suffering and/or massive medical expenses that can be expected -- deciding rationally that they prefer not to continue that way or at least that they want to be in control if they get to where they can't take it anymore, or that they don't want to burden their families. Suicide statistics never to my knowledge tease this out, and I would expect an atheistic society to have a higher percentage of rational suicides than a theistic society.
Yes, that's true. There is often a period of anguish in deconverting (which isn't the same thing as living in an atheist country as an atheist) but deconversion stories seem to indicate that people don't top themselves because of some survival instinct and a need to work out what is true- much of the anguish was in the process of losing Faith (and you won't take the dive in case you get it again). Once lost, one can feel hopeless but the stories seemed to indicate a sort of realization that there was another life.
Not lecturing you - you have th T shirt. But explaining it to the readers that the process of losing faith doesn't seem to be a fatal condition any more than not having faith.
I'm not cool with a "Christian" name tag being required to lead the country. But that's another thread.
I wish Cruz the education in both. I'd like him to spend 24 hours in a room with a rapist and then with an atheist. We will see if he changes his tune. I'm thinking he will.
I'm not cool with a "Christian" name tag being required to lead the country. But that's another thread.
I wish Cruz the education in both. I'd like him to spend 24 hours in a room with a rapist and then with an atheist. We will see if he changes his tune. I'm thinking he will.
I'm not so sure.
"At least that rapist thought there was probably a God; that atheist didn't."
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atheism and suicide.
