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thank you for your thoughtful response, please see post #62
had this stayed in Religion and Spirituality where it originated, other topics could be addressed; however since the moderators have moved the topic to Atheism and Agnosticism, it is not permitted to discuss other religions and belief systems.
several times you've been asked this yet you side step the question with bs. it is as simple as you have been telling the rest of us. a yes or no is all that is needed. care to answer the question?
I think s/he is "proving" to her/himself that atheists don't care about other people. People stuck in boxes will do almost anything to entertain themselves.
I think that you are right on that. And that might be the reason that the OP will not place him or herself in a similar situation but reversed.
I think s/he is "proving" to her/himself that atheists don't care about other people. People stuck in boxes will do almost anything to entertain themselves.
S/he can go read my post in the parent thread if he wants to know how atheists help. With real food. Not imaginary well wishes.
if your town, country, city, nation, family were under attack, and peaceful innocent people were being slaughtered and killed right and left, and someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer, would you pray? It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray? Or would you be willing to let others suffer and die because it is not something you believe would have any effect whatsoever?
in this scenario, the fate of your family and good people everywhere rests with what the atheists and agnostics decide to do. They are the "swing vote" that determines whether more people are killed, or whether goodness and kindness prevail to give peace a chance. Let's say 40% of the world is already praying for peace, 40% of the world are engaged in vicious brutality and seeks to destroy humankind, and the remaining 20% are atheists and agnostics.
If the 20% does not pray, then darkness wins, you and your neighbors are killed. If the 20% does pray, the vicious attackers are defeated, and peace returns. What you do literally determines the outcome. Would you pray for peace? This does not require you to join a religion or hold any beliefs about God, it is simply praying out loud and in your heart, "Help! Send us peace."
yes, no, why or why not
thank you everyone for your input
Psychologically, it is understandable that you would try to rescue a cherished belief such as "prayer" from trouble. When faced with conflicting data, you are likely to mention how the conflict will disappear if some new assumption is taken into account. However, if there is no good reason to accept this saving assumption other than that it works to save your cherished belief, your rescue is an ad hoc rescue.
A better question is why does Yahweh (or for christians the Yahweh-Jesus thing) blatantly refuse to heal amputees?
The prayers of amputees go unanswered.
That also includes those who have lost their vision due to loss of one or both eyes. Their prayers are ignored as well.
if your town, country, city, nation, family were under attack, and peaceful innocent people were being slaughtered and killed right and left, and someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer, would you pray? It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray? Or would you be willing to let others suffer and die because it is not something you believe would have any effect whatsoever?
in this scenario, the fate of your family and good people everywhere rests with what the atheists and agnostics decide to do. They are the "swing vote" that determines whether more people are killed, or whether goodness and kindness prevail to give peace a chance. Let's say 40% of the world is already praying for peace, 40% of the world are engaged in vicious brutality and seeks to destroy humankind, and the remaining 20% are atheists and agnostics.
If the 20% does not pray, then darkness wins, you and your neighbors are killed. If the 20% does pray, the vicious attackers are defeated, and peace returns. What you do literally determines the outcome. Would you pray for peace? This does not require you to join a religion or hold any beliefs about God, it is simply praying out loud and in your heart, "Help! Send us peace."
yes, no, why or why not
thank you everyone for your input
I see you moved from 'someone said' to declaring that that assertion was correct. Was that intentionally deceitful, or just hapless? You see, it is nonsensical to address your question to agnostics and atheists, and then predicate it upon those agnostics and atheists accepting the existence of God (necessarily, obviously, for prayer to be required to save people).
At any rate, your question as as absurd as a Muslim asking a Christian if they would convert to Islam and make a pilgrimage to Mecca or else a town full of innocents would be killed and Allah would not intervene. Since the Christian does not believe in the Islamic version of the Abrahamic deity, the question is illogical on its face - as is your question which requires agnostics and atheists to affirmatively believe in a prayer-answering deity for your hypothetical to work.
Even in the near-endless array of ridiculously contorted religious make-believes meant to put agnostics and atheists in a quandry, your what-if stands out as remarkably silly.
... it is nonsensical to address your question to agnostics and atheists, and then predicate it upon those agnostics and atheists accepting the existence of God (necessarily, obviously, for prayer to be required to save people).
....illogical on its face - as is your question which requires agnostics and atheists to affirmatively believe in a prayer-answering deity for your hypothetical to work...Even in the near-endless array of ridiculously contorted religious make-believes meant to put agnostics and atheists in a quandry, your what-if stands out as remarkably silly.
thank you for your thoughtful response
no, the opening post clearly states that it does NOT ask the person to change any of their views or beliefs whatsoever about god or religion
so...is that a yes or a no for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
... What you do literally determines the outcome. Would you pray for peace? This does not require you to join a religion or hold any beliefs about God, it is simply praying out loud and in your heart, "Help! Send us peace."
no, the opening post clearly states that it does NOT ask the person to change any of their views or beliefs whatsoever about god or religion
so...is that a yes or a no for you?
What you are not getting is that you are asking us if we would be willing to pretend to do something that only by pretending can bad be prevented from happening. By pretending I do not mean the praying itself but the act of praying without believing in a something to be praying to. It makes absolutely no sense. I know you do not or will not answer questions that you think will not rack you up points but what would be the difference between praying to stop evil without having to believe in any diety and asking us would we be willing to pretend we are spiderman to save the world? Unless you think that if we state we would be willing to pray without changing our beliefs about not believing in any gods that you would be able to claim that we actually do believe in a god. At least you must be having some kind of fun with your word game.
if your town, country, city, nation, family were under attack, and peaceful innocent people were being slaughtered and killed right and left, and someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer, would you pray? It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray? Or would you be willing to let others suffer and die because it is not something you believe would have any effect whatsoever?
in this scenario, the fate of your family and good people everywhere rests with what the atheists and agnostics decide to do. They are the "swing vote" that determines whether more people are killed, or whether goodness and kindness prevail to give peace a chance. Let's say 40% of the world is already praying for peace, 40% of the world are engaged in vicious brutality and seeks to destroy humankind, and the remaining 20% are atheists and agnostics.
If the 20% does not pray, then darkness wins, you and your neighbors are killed. If the 20% does pray, the vicious attackers are defeated, and peace returns. What you do literally determines the outcome. Would you pray for peace? This does not require you to join a religion or hold any beliefs about God, it is simply praying out loud and in your heart, "Help! Send us peace."
yes, no, why or why not
thank you everyone for your input
Your posted scenario is a reflection of tyranny and ammoral blackmail. The entire scenario as described is not possible but I'll give you my yes or no answer anyway.
I'm an agnostic. If somebody tried to coerce me into praying to some unknown entity by issuing the ultimatum to me that the fate of humanity rests on my shoulders depending on whether or not I pray for peace then I would not pray. However, I might consider doing something very nasty to the tyrannical bully that was trying to coerce me by preying on my moral conscience.
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