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If a person takes the versus literally, either for or against it means they have the issue. They are black and white, all or nothing, thinkers. We can compare the traits of these people to a list of personality disorders and begin to see why they make the claims they do. we don't have to bite. or at least if we do bite be honest about it. I can/will fight a Christian literalist with literal atheism. But I will be honest about it when talking to a normal. "normal" meaning regular believer or non believer.
on forums it is harder to fight some literalists' because many times one component of PD's is OCD. They can out post the rest of us by a long hot. For me, I look at adjectives and/or how they attack grammar issues. nine out of ten times, Grammar natzie's fit nicely into personality categories. Like my hand does a midium sized gradening glove.
I am terminally ill. I actually died in the ER last July for about a minute or so. Luckily I had about a dozen highly educated doctors and technicians that were able to quickly identify the pathogen that had caused septic pneumonia and septic shock.
I was awake the entire time they were working on me which was about 6 hours. At first I was pissed that I was even brought to the ER, but I quickly started to know I was in real trouble. Hearing things like BP is 40/20 Pulse is 193. To hearing things like his kidneys are failing, Push 2 bags of O+ etc. My family was outside the curtain and I had to lift my head to see all of them. When I could no longer lift my head and then I couldn't force my eyes to look to the left... they simply went straight ahead and stuff started to go black (but I could still hear everything). I knew I was going to die. I imagined myself on one of those old wooden roller coasters but I was the only one on it in the back row, and the background was the cosmos, like something in a sci-fi movie. As it went over the top I thought to myself that I don't believe anything is beyond here, but it would be insanely cool if there is.
Up to that moment I had wondered if I (being a very evangelical Christian for many years) who was raised with a fire and brimstone lake of fire for non-believers) would pray for forgiveness or would I refuse to do it.
Truth is I didn't think about it at all. I simply thought this is the end of me. I hope my family will be O.K. and if I am wrong and there is anything after death... I hope it is cool as ****.
So long story short. No, I wouldn't pray if there was nothing else. I think this is where you don't really understand Agnostics or Atheists. We don't believe in god any more than we believe in the FSM or Pink Unicorn of the Universe, or Great Gumby and Pokey. Asking if we would pray if there was nothing else is like asking would you pray to a vending machine or an old bottle of wine... I'm not trying to be mean, I'm simply pointing out how we view prayer. You see it as Binary (god or no god) we see it as infinite... nothing supernatural.
Make sense?
No light at the end of the tunnel? Would love to learn more about what you felt before, during and after.
Wow, you have taken some knocks for asking a simple question that has been over-thought beyond belief. It's like getting to the meaning of the word "is". We have been told we don't have to believe in God for the words to work. We say things we don't mean or feel every day- good morning, thanks, how are you, take care, good night, gesundheit.
It was NOT a 'simple question'.
It was a hypothetical that specifically asked atheists - who do not believe that a deity exists - how they would behave if prayer would save someone. The question thus requires them to be atheists while simultaneously believing that prayer works.
That is nonsensical.
The only simple thing about the question is the obviousness of its self-contradiction.
if your town, country, city, nation, family were under attack, and peaceful innocent people were being slaughtered and killed right and left, and someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer, would you pray? It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray? Or would you be willing to let others suffer and die because it is not something you believe would have any effect whatsoever?
in this scenario, the fate of your family and good people everywhere rests with what the atheists and agnostics decide to do. They are the "swing vote" that determines whether more people are killed, or whether goodness and kindness prevail to give peace a chance. Let's say 40% of the world is already praying for peace, 40% of the world are engaged in vicious brutality and seeks to destroy humankind, and the remaining 20% are atheists and agnostics.
If the 20% does not pray, then darkness wins, you and your neighbors are killed. If the 20% does pray, the vicious attackers are defeated, and peace returns. What you do literally determines the outcome. Would you pray for peace? This does not require you to join a religion or hold any beliefs about God, it is simply praying out loud and in your heart, "Help! Send us peace."
yes, no, why or why not
thank you everyone for your input
No I wouldn't because I don't believe in prayer and there's no proof that praying saves lives or brings peace. I don't have a problem if people of faith wanted to pray but atheists and agnostics that firmly disbelieve in it shouldn't be forced or even encouraged to.
Many people turn to religion and prayer in desperate times because they feel defenseless. Religion is nothing more than a crutch for the weak and insecure. It doesn't make anyone a better person or the world safer. In fact religion causes discourse, turmoil, war, and terrorism more than it creates peace and harmony.
If my city, country, or family was being attacked I'd grab some weapons and fight back. That would be the only realistic way to combat the enemy!
It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray?
If it could be substantiated in some way that doing so would help, I would not hesitate to do so. But I am not about to drop to my knees and engage in ineffective mumbling just because someone one manically runs around asserting it will be useful.
After all why pick "pray" in your OP? You could have put ANYTHING there. Like "Sacrifice a goat" or "Rape a virgin" or "Do the Can-Can across the bed of the mayor".
There is any number of complete nonsense that YOU likely would not engage in just because someone screams "If 25% of us do this it will help!!!". I merely class "prayer" in with that nonsense because there is no evidence that prayer will help, there is no evidence there is a god. Simple as that.
"praying" does help. But not with a magic man coming to save us. It slows us down, helps us focus,and unlocks a line of thought tht may be "stuck". And it may join up a group of people by releasing chemical, radiant, and visual clues. That's where I start. Dismissing "prayer' so "false" is wrong. But it is just as wrong to think it works by magic Omni dude.
I wonder why we don't focus on the true parts to unite ourselves? I guess that would mean milliez war would go away, we can't have that.
the bad side of it is "mob mentality", but I am sure that there is a good side.
if your town, country, city, nation, family were under attack, and peaceful innocent people were being slaughtered and killed right and left, and someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer, would you pray? It would mean saving the lives of not only you and your family, but those in your town and nation as well. Would you pray? Or would you be willing to let others suffer and die because it is not something you believe would have any effect whatsoever?
yes, no, why or why not
I haven't read this entire thread to know if this will be repetitive, though I'm actually hoping someone else has raised these points before me.
There's a fundamental problem with the scenario as you posted it. In your setup, you say: "Someone said the only thing that can save them is prayer." An atheist believes that God is a fiction contrived by man; in other words, that it's all just "what someone said". Why would someone believe this hypothetical town crier if they don't believe the rest of the people who say God exists?
There's also the problem of what an Atheist's prayer would be worth. Prayer has to be sincere; not just sincerity about the message of the prayer, but a sincerity of belief in who or what will be on the receiving end of it. There has to be at least a shred of hope that there's a God for a prayer to be meaningful. If you're a true Atheist, you're not going to suddenly believe or even suspect there's a higher power just because all hell has broken loose.
I'm a Christian, but I wouldn't blame my Atheist friends for not praying in this circumstance because I know exactly why they wouldn't be inclined to do so and I can respect that. It's not cold-hearted, it's realistic.
I think I would pray, but only because it is programmed into my genetic code to look to a deity in a time of extremis. Homo Sapiens is a Superstitious Animal.
I don't put shoes on the table or travel on Friday 13, either. Just as rational.
I don't put shoes on the table or travel on Friday 13, either. Just as rational.
Put shoes on the table? That's a new one to me. Although I've never done it, it's because the last thing I want on a nice clean table is mud off the bottom of a shoe.
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