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Old 02-28-2016, 03:16 PM
 
888 posts, read 451,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
In the final analysis I'd have to say that this fabled "vital marriage" is at best in the single digits (<10%) and probably something like 1 or 2 percent.

Aside from all the above you have the simple fact that marriages are interrupted by the general mayhem of existence -- death, serious illness and injury -- and these can turn even a "vital marriage" into a joyless grind, if it doesn't terminate it altogether. We haven't entirely vanquished "nature, red in tooth and claw".

So I concluded that if you are looking for marriage to perk up an otherwise uncompelling sense of purpose and meaning, you have probably a 98% chance of being at least somewhat disappointed / disillusioned, and maybe a LOT disillusioned.

Realizations like this have always caused me to have some regard for Buddhism, which basically in so many words starts out with the admission that life is difficult and nothing is permanent and then rather than promising to fix that, teaches you to accept it. If you can really get this concept through your head, and really live it, it does wonders for your emotional state. And you don't really need all the trappings and practices of Buddhism to grasp this concept.

A lot of what you bemoan is a waste of time and not actionable and serves no purpose. You'll figure that out eventually. After all, one of the benefits of leaving fundamentalist / literalist thought behind is that it frees you, not only to think without restrictions and follow evidence WHEREVER it leads, but also it frees you from the responsibility to BE SOMEONE in the eyes of some imagined deity or even your own eyes.

I have found that Mordant is a good and loyal friend to himself, never betrays himself, and always is true to himself. This is, and must be, sufficient.
"And the two shall become one..." is a concept that has caused untold misery for many because the underlying assumptions are usually misunderstood. I once heard someone refer to this concept by saying there's a strange equation about marriage: one plus one equals one. In order for a marriage to succeed, each person needs to be a whole person individually. Unfortunately, many people internalized the "two shall become one" concept as finding a soulmate is essentially to happiness, as opposed to figure out what you want to do by yourself and then see if you find someone to share your life with.

This ideal creates the misperception that another person is what will make your life complete and will complement you to the point of filling those parts of you that are lacking. It is so far from the truth it's reprehensible that religions and our culture have promoted it on a massive level. While the find-someone-to-make-you-whole ideal may not be stated explicitly, it is certainly internalized by many, including my younger self. It's not just religion that has promoted the marriage-as-necessary-for-happiness ideal. The princess finding her prince to marry still looms large.

I fell victim to this mentality, made some poor decisions and indulged in behavior I wish I hadn't. That said, this was in my twenties and I'm grateful I didn't end in up in any awful situations. On some levels I knew that certain relationships weren't right for me, even though I didn't want to see it that way then. I'm also lucky the men in my life during this period either knew it wouldn't have worked and/or decided they didn't want to be involved with me for good reasons, not just for ones associated with the extent to which I could have a healthy relationship. I'm fine now.

Part of developing into a whole person who has realistic expectations about life is to accept that life will be difficult to varying degrees at different times, which you described above. Expecting any relationship to mitigate life's circumstances sets up the relationship for failure. People also change and their paths diverge to the point a previously successful partnership no longer works. Our culture puts too much of a stigma on "failed" relationships, as opposed to moving because it is mutually healthy for both partners. Of course, two people don't always have the same opinion of whether or not the relationship is successful, but you know what I mean. That divorce sends one to hell is an evil concept, to use religious terminology.

You speak out a lot about relationships (and pretty much everything else) as part of your wanting to help others by presenting your experiences to the world, in part for those who read our forums but cannot or chose not to post for assorted reasons. I do this to an extent, but it's more because these forums have helped me clarify my thoughts about the role of religion in my life and I benefit from the exchange of experiences and ideas.
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,717 posts, read 13,265,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
"And the two shall become one..." is a concept that has caused untold misery for many because the underlying assumptions are usually misunderstood. I once heard someone refer to this concept by saying there's a strange equation about marriage: one plus one equals one. In order for a marriage to succeed, each person needs to be a whole person individually. Unfortunately, many people internalized the "two shall become one" concept as finding a soulmate is essentially to happiness, as opposed to figure out what you want to do by yourself and then see if you find someone to share your life with.
True and very well said. I agree.

The problem also is that you have to fight back against what shrinks would call cathexis ... the rose-colored glasses through which we tend to deify our partner, especially early in the relationship. We project furiously on them all our hopes, desires, and fantasies. No mere mortal can sustain such deification. Eventually we have to "give back our projections" so we might as well make quick work of it and do it sooner rather than later. There are no princes, no princesses. Just fellow humans who by and large, objectively, are no more worthy of our faith than the next person other than that we've chosen to focus on and know them and commit to them, and one would hope, that interest, commitment and loyalty is mutual. That MAKES them special, but it is an emergent property of the relationship, not something inherent in the participants.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:42 PM
 
18,183 posts, read 16,750,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
Answering this as a binary yes or no question, I will say no. When I figured out that the religious interpretation I internalized of how one should refrain from and indulge in sex was wrong, I was still young enough to move on.

Were your questions to be phrased more in the middle, along the lines of did your version of Christianity instill unreasonable fears and expectations about sexuality, and did these influence you in psychologically harmful ways that caused you to make some bad decisions, some regrettable, I would have to answer yes. Moving away from the fear did not fix the self esteem issues I'd developed. That took much longer, although reminders of low self esteem still pop up now and then.

I'm grateful I have no horrific tales to tell and if you had a microscope to look into my life, I don't think you'd find it that interesting. Woody Allen wouldn't have wanted to make me a character in one of his movies. Mordant is right that the Christian related baggage doesn't go away just because one stops believing and not all of one's baggage is caused by religion.

I think I understand the fear you're describing, although I don't think I had it as bad. And I hope you can gain some solace from sharing your story here. I appreciate your talking about it, and hearing other's stories in these forums has been a comfort to me. Some of the C-D stories other tell have made me feel like I wasn't so alone, even if it felt that way at the time. They've helped me understand some of my baggage better.

I certainly have baggage from my fundie days, Peach. Primarly it came from the nuns in parochial school, believe it or not. One nun used to tell us the following (this is no joke) "Wonder what burning in hell for eternity is like? Imagine every million years coming to earth and moving one grain of sand, doing that every million years until you've cleared away the entire earth. Then looking up to heaven and asking God through all the sweat from the heat, "Is eternity almost over?" and God answering, "It hasn't even begun." Don't think that wouldn't you wet your pants every time you commit a mortal sin of thinking about the cute girl sitting next to you.


Stuff like that hangs around in various forms no matter how much you've tried to convince yourself it's all a crock. My down-feelings go more to "What was the point of it all? Why did evolution design us so stupidly? On the one hand we're a marvel of engineering. On the other, sociologically we've evolved into an absolute mess." I can understand why many oldsters facing old age and the mental, physiological, sociological, and familial burdens that go along with it make them decide to just end it. I know if I were facing terminal cancer, ALS, or similar I'd seriously consider it. Oddly the one that doesn't frighten me is Alzheimers because I have enough to be taken care of without burdening my dear wife and losing my mind isn't that bad as long as I die unaware that I'm actually dying.


But again, I question the absolute ineptness of nature and evolution in how we came to this---9 out of 10 of us living like malcontents devoid on any real purpose for being here other than to procreate to carry on the misery. Philosophically, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I question the absolute ineptness of nature and evolution in how we came to this---9 out of 10 of us living like malcontents devoid on any real purpose for being here other than to procreate to carry on the misery. Philosophically, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
Well here again ... it is not that nature or evolution are inept, because they aren't intentional agents. They are simply mechanisms. When you see natural selection for what it is, and the universe for what it is, it's a wonder things aren't WORSE than they are.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:25 PM
 
888 posts, read 451,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I certainly have baggage from my fundie days, Peach. Primarly it came from the nuns in parochial school, believe it or not. One nun used to tell us the following (this is no joke) "Wonder what burning in hell for eternity is like? Imagine every million years coming to earth and moving one grain of sand, doing that every million years until you've cleared away the entire earth. Then looking up to heaven and asking God through all the sweat from the heat, "Is eternity almost over?" and God answering, "It hasn't even begun." Don't think that wouldn't you wet your pants every time you commit a mortal sin of thinking about the cute girl sitting next to you.


Stuff like that hangs around in various forms no matter how much you've tried to convince yourself it's all a crock. My down-feelings go more to "What was the point of it all? Why did evolution design us so stupidly? On the one hand we're a marvel of engineering. On the other, sociologically we've evolved into an absolute mess." I can understand why many oldsters facing old age and the mental, physiological, sociological, and familial burdens that go along with it make them decide to just end it. I know if I were facing terminal cancer, ALS, or similar I'd seriously consider it. Oddly the one that doesn't frighten me is Alzheimers because I have enough to be taken care of without burdening my dear wife and losing my mind isn't that bad as long as I die unaware that I'm actually dying.


But again, I question the absolute ineptness of nature and evolution in how we came to this---9 out of 10 of us living like malcontents devoid on any real purpose for being here other than to procreate to carry on the misery. Philosophically, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me.
It sounds like you're grieving lost opportunities and tyou feel life was really unfair to you. I know it's a cliche to say you can't change the past, but it's true. If your past unfairness is causing you to be this upset, then you should make some conscious effort to do something to feel better and get some enjoyment out of the time you have left. You owe it to yourself to find things that do give you pleasure.

If you are upset to the point thinking about your past is making it impossible to live your life without being upset, then look into the stages of grief, especially if you are just now letting yourself accept how awful things were. Reconciling one's past isn't always easy. It takes time and you may need support and/or more knowledge about the stages of grief. I may be off base here, but this is how your posts strike me.

I'm old enough and have been through enough that I now pay close attention to those activities that make me feel good. I know certain types of music and songs make me feel happy, so I put them on. I make sure to take some time to do pleasurable activities in between work and other obligations.

Years ago I was told that the disabled rights community had a nickname for a person who isn't disabled, TAB, which stands for temporarily able bodied. We will all be disabled when we die, even if just briefly. Unfair though it may seem, how we will die isn't something we can control, at least generally speaking. That's a good reason to not dwell on it too much. But if you're this bothered by it, research what you can to be able to make choices and plans when possible. If nothing else, look into the resources in your community to know what to expect. I know this is easier than it sounds. I hope your worries lessen and you can gain some tangible enjoyment with the time you have left.
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,717 posts, read 13,265,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
It sounds like you're grieving lost opportunities and you feel life was really unfair to you. I know it's a cliche to say you can't change the past, but it's true.
Everything you say in this post is wise and true. Well put.

I would add for Trillobyte that the words we use in talking about a thing, even to ourselves, matter. I would work to expunge the word "unfair" from my thinking and replace it with "unlucky". It will help to tease your thinking away from the fixed idea that some god or god surrogate could have / should have acted differently on your behalf, and that this symbolic father figure DOES act for others. Neither idea is true in actual reality. Trill speaks of the "1%" like Bernie Sanders does, but the 1% Sanders pillories is real. Disagree with him about the implications if you want, but there really IS a 1% that has more wealth than most of the rest of the country put together. On the other hand, there IS NOT actually a 1% that is privileged with the largesse of god.

What is actually true here is that there is a small percentage of people who "shoot the rapids of life" are so frigging lucky that they have no major disappointments much less major losses. Which is just exactly what one would expect if we are on our own and not getting help from invisible friends or more abstract entities like "reality" with some implied conscious volition. If life is just stuff happening then you'd EXPECT that a SMALL percentage of people will be predominantly lucky, and that you are unlikely to be among them. That is simple statistics.

Also people have deaths in the family, terrible illness, and make stupid mistakes at about the same rates whether or not they believe that they are in god's back pocket -- again what we would expect, precisely, if the idea of god watching over you or caring about you was nothing more than wishful thinking.
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Old 03-01-2016, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Portland, OR
605 posts, read 700,494 times
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It was hard for me since you gain a lot more personal responsibility as an atheist. At first I felt direction-less; I shed a god who hands you your life's purpose, your so-call morality, and world view. But now, I realize it is a freedom and I've become a much better person, since I'm good for goodness' sake (instead of doing good because I'm told to), but I'm still working on my life's purpose
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:59 PM
 
888 posts, read 451,021 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I would add for Trillobyte that the words we use in talking about a thing, even to ourselves, matter. I would work to expunge the word "unfair" from my thinking and replace it with "unlucky".
Good point. Unfair usually has some kind of judgment associated with it. For some in education, there's a belief that being fair to children in the school setting isn't treating them all the same. It's giving them what they need. Random rolls of the dice is what we get, not events picked by a god who is giving us what we need.

Letting go of the dream of one, perfect union, means you have to work through having let yourself down and realizing your dream has been dashed. It can be coupled with (pun intended) having to admit you've been had, which can be a hard pill to swallow. It's never easy to let go of something you really wanted and worked hard to achieve, no matter how little or how much time you put into trying to make the dream come true. When I was a believer, I concluded god didn't have absolutes about sex the way religion portrayed it. Unfortunately, it didn't immediately translate into realistic expectations for relationships.

Your comments about zero tolerance and zero mercy in the thread Pass the Chocolate started about losing friends (that has turned into a conversation about infidelity, much of which I've skimmed not read) also apply to this thread. It's hard when one has set a goal with zero tolerance for failure to later decide it was a foolish goal. I always knew that god didn't care about it from a zero tolerance/zero mercy perspective, but I still internalized the message too much because I was a good girl who wanted to do what was ideal.
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,717 posts, read 13,265,101 times
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Originally Posted by TransplantedPeach View Post
It's hard when one has set a goal with zero tolerance for failure to later decide it was a foolish goal. I always knew that god didn't care about it from a zero tolerance/zero mercy perspective, but I still internalized the message too much because I was a good girl who wanted to do what was ideal.
It takes one to know one, Peach ... I was the good boy who wanted to do the Right Thing(tm), Make a Difference(tm), etc. Caring too much and trying too hard: the story of my life until fairly recently.
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Old 03-03-2016, 12:38 PM
 
Location: "Arlen" Texas
11,225 posts, read 2,895,159 times
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I may not be what you'd consider older, but for me it was freeing!
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