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"love" often comes at the expense of reason. It's a needed subroutine. But needing to be loved is troublesome at times. The conclusion "there is an Omni dude" because "I know the universe loves me" is an example. One is possible without the other. I still see no reason for an Omni dude. But I can see particle interactions within this region of space causing the illusion of "some giant human thingy loving "me""
I noted many posters claimed they are not afraid of death. I believe most are referring to Thanophobia [the un_inhibited fear of death]. Thanatophobia - Phobia Wiki - Wikia
The fact is DNA wise all humans are embedded with an unavoidable inherent fear of death but this fear is fortunately inhibited to a great degree with a sliver of room for fear which is active subliminally to facilitate survival. For example, why humans;
-instinctively avoid walking under ladders,
-wary, feature or cautious in very dark places.
-other subliminal manifestations of real fears
-most notably of all, cling to a belief in God.
I believe it is more appropriate to assert, one don't have thanophobia but has an inherent subliminal impulsive fear of death active within my psyche.
Thus it is critical that theists trace their theistic impulse to this more active inherent subliminal impulsive fear of death active is within my psyche.
As for non-theists, they have a less active inherent subliminal impulse of fear of death active within their psyche. [Note variations on this, i.e. some may have an active impulse but indifferent to theism for various reasons]
We all have a survival instinct. Natural selection guarantees this. People who are cautious of real dangers and threats to well being and survival tend to pass their genes on to their offspring more reliably.
I don't see thanatophobia as entirely or even necessarily at all a conscious extension of the survival instinct. The survival instinct influences it, but comes from a different, primal source. I believe that thanataphobia is manufactured to leverage the survival instinct as part of its starting-point, and probably not even the most important part.
I take this from my reading of Becker and others, who discuss the organic view that tribal animists and other modern examples of primitive man, prior to organized religion, held. It is a view that is hard for us who are so steeped in organized religion to grasp. Such peoples saw life and death as opposite sides of a coin, as part of a whole, and their religious rituals were designed to be the interaction-point between the living and the dead. They were not oriented primarily, if at all, towards assuaging a conscious fear of death, but rather, to complete what were seen as necessary transactions in the workings of the cosmos. The dead did things for the living in exchange for which the living did things for the dead. For such people the afterlife is such a reality that they literally DO see it as going to sleep in one realm and waking up in another. It is an important transition, just as coming-of-age and others ... but no more momentous for that. So long as the proper incantations are respected and performed, it is not a big deal.
It was only when organized religion divorced life and death from each other that religion and politics and daily life in society became a series of what Becker terms "immortality projects". This includes seeking to avoid assignment to a torturous afterlife and maintaining one's rights to a blissful afterlife; seeking to make some sort of illusory "permanent" mark, being remembered, revered, respected after death; building various institutions, movements and literal structures that outlive us, and so forth.
Contrast this with the life of a typical animist tribesman. He "works" -- if you can call it that -- maybe 20 hours a week. A typical day might be hunting and fishing in the morning, followed by a cookout and playing with the kids, etc., rinse and repeat. He neither cares nor needs to build monuments to himself or curry favor with the gods. His place is secure. He ritually honors and invokes the aid of his ancestors, and takes it for granted that he will join them as the great wheel of existence turns. Depression and anxiety are literally unknown in those tiny societies apart maybe from those who are seriously ill and unable to fulfill their place in the culture.
^ The ancient Europeans (Teutons and Celts at least) before the advent of Christianity had a similar view of life and death as parts of a neverending cycle. Ever heard of Ragnarok/Twilight of the Gods? Even the gods themselves were expected to perish one day. But after death there would come a new birth, a cleansing and regeneration, a new spring, so to say.
I think it's a pity we have for the most part lost that view.
We all have a survival instinct. Natural selection guarantees this. People who are cautious of real dangers and threats to well being and survival tend to pass their genes on to their offspring more reliably.
I don't see thanatophobia as entirely or even necessarily at all a conscious extension of the survival instinct. The survival instinct influences it, but comes from a different, primal source. I believe that thanataphobia is manufactured to leverage the survival instinct as part of its starting-point, and probably not even the most important part.
Actually thanatophobia is in one way due to the survival instinct just as rape is from the sexual instinct but both are perversions that need psychiatric attention.
Thanatophobia or Death anxiety is the morbid, abnormal, or persistent fear of one's own mortality. -wiki
What I implied was there are two forms of fear of death, i.e.
1. Thanatophobia - very conscious of the fear
2. the Sublimininal active subconscious fear -that Becker discussed in his Book.
While ordinary people can deny (1) they should not deny (2) as exhorted by Becker.
When the majority understand and accept 2 then they can start to understand why they have the strong natural impulse to be theists and why SOME theists commit terrible evils and violence in the name of their religion and prophet.
Yes. Yesterday I was thinking about "Phobia" (in connection with the "God -phobia" accusation. Which is of course a Bash rather than an argument) and specifically a fear of death accusation would be absurd as a "Bash". It is natural to fear death. It is an evolved survival instinct that all animals (and some plants) share. We may lose fear of death, but nobody seeks it, unless under extremes where life becomes unacceptable.
But there can be an irrational fear of death, like simply not being able to get on with life because of it. So a phobia is an irrational fear. Nothing relevant perhaps but maybe helps to clarify the idea of "Phobia". Distinguish it from a fear or dislike that is rational. And of course there can be attractions and desires that are irrational or at least not common.
Of course there are also cultural likes and dislikes that are understandable, but not universal. I might think of the ancient Egyptian love of warm grease running down over the head at parties, the old Japanese horror of white teeth and the old SE Asians being fine with bare bouncers, but you could never show your legs. Good old Star Trek made this a Point with the Ferengi, who thought the human (and galactic, pretty much!) custom of allowing women to wear clothes and go outside was disgusting.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-16-2016 at 02:53 AM..
I have no fear whatsoever. What I experience has nothing to fear in it at all. I have intellectual integrity about it as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Most of what I said applies to authoritarians, which you are not. So I have no reason to think you are fear-driven. You're way more enamored of personal subjective experience than I am but we have long since agreed to disagree on that score.
Understood. As a point of concession, If I had to rely only on the religious narratives offered as the basis for my belief in and faith in God, I would have remained an atheist.
Yes, Mystic. Though it may not seem like it, we do understand the impression that your personal experiences made on you and is the basis of your whole explanatory system. As you know, we do have alternative explanations, but certainly can't rule out that you may be right, nor even that the same could happen to any of us.
Understood. As a point of concession, If I had to rely only on the religious narratives offered as the basis for my belief in and faith in God, I would have remained an atheist.
my turned happened when I first went to walk over to talk to the other atheists. I never saw a group before. 3/4 of the way over I stopped and listened.
"no god! ... no god! ... no god!"
"we have the real truth"
"gaze at the symbol of clarity logic and reason"
"they are the ones that "insert dehumanizing comment."
"go forth and convert as many as you can."
Luckily, I was atheist before that, otherwise I wouldn't be one today.
Mainly because religion bores me and seems entirely illogical, if not downright preposterous. And among the very devout it inspires irrational behavior and values. I've never been inclined to believe, frankly, despite being raised Catholic. I remember spending much of my childhood thinking, "OMG, wait, you people actually believe this?? Come on!"
Mainly because religion bores me and seems entirely illogical, if not downright preposterous. And among the very devout it inspires irrational behavior and values. I've never been inclined to believe, frankly, despite being raised Catholic. I remember spending much of my childhood thinking, "OMG, wait, you people actually believe this?? Come on!"
hey, me too. I didn't believe in like 3rd grade. I was like "now wait just a min ..." ... ...
I mean I was ok with love, passion, and understanding. But I had trouble with dying, waking up, and flying away, forgiving me when he made me, and if he is "Omni-dude", that whole cross thing wasn't suffering, well, at least not as much as I had to endure when sister James johnson cut my hair using a bowl.
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