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Again,
You keep talking about evidence and I keep reminding you that forming a faith is NOT based on evidence.
This is from the dictionary: Faith: Belief that is not based on proof
Have you ever used the word "Hope"?
For example, "I hope it doesn't rain today."
If yes, then please provide me with evidence that there is something called "Hope", that exists. You believe in the existence of "Hope", so you better have a very good evidence of its existence.
If no, you don't believe in hope, then is it fair to say that you are "hopeless"?
The evidence for hope is quite clear
If I said I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow means I would like it not to rain tomorrow. As there is no expectations upon something or someone to keep it from raining and one does not expect it to not rain just because you would not like it to rain you can say I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow without any proof that it will not rain.
Hope is an expression for what someone would like to happen. No one I know of bases their life or beliefs on hope. No one I know of claims things are true based on what they hoped for and no one I know wishes for laws to be passed to control the activities of others based on it.
The difference between our hope and your faith is that we hope that it won't rain but when it does, we accept that it is raining. On the other hand, with faith, you hope that it won't rain and then when it does rain, you deny that it's raining.
No sir.
When it rains when we hope it wouldn't, we practice patience and say, God knows better. As God has already has addressed such situations for those who believe.
Quote:
...perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And God Knows, while you know not.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 08-24-2017 at 11:21 AM..
If I said I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow means I would like it not to rain tomorrow. As there is no expectations upon something or someone to keep it from raining and one does not expect it to not rain just because you would not like it to rain you can say I hope it doesn't rain tomorrow without any proof that it will not rain.
Hope is an expression for what someone would like to happen. No one I know of bases their life or beliefs on hope. No one I know of claims things are true based on what they hoped for and no one I know wishes for laws to be passed to control the activities of others based on it.
There are two ways to look at it, and that's a different route that our discussion is taking even though, in my opinion, you were not able to provide any scientific, repeatable verifiable and validated evidence of existence of any such thing called "Hope". This is the same kind of evidence Atheists demand for the existence of God.
1 - When you hope for something, you want someone or something to change the course of what may happen.
For example, you don't know whether it would rain tomorrow or not. It is possible that it may rain and it's possible that it may not rain. Lets give it a 50 50 chances.
So when you hope that it won't rain, you want the course of nature to be changed by some force to make it 100% in favor of no rain. Otherwise, you would NEVER hope for anything.
but when you DO hope for something, who do you expect to do this for you? When you "Hope" for something, you in a way, unconsciously, ask for divine intervention. This is my opinion.
2 - Hope and Trust, in my opinion have an overlap to make it a Venn diagram of faith.
A believer puts an effort to live a balanced and morally conscious life under God's guidance as he Trusts his creator, and then he hopes that he will be among those who will succeeded in the hereafter.
Umm, GoCardinals, if the question was 'wrongly posted' then you are the one who wrongly posted it.
It was YOUR flippin' statement in the first place!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Gottim. It WAS Cardinal's argument that having reasons to believe destroys faith and Faith gives life meaning.
It was our contention that life have perfectly good meanings without a god -belief, whether or not it is based on evidence or Faith.
It is quite amusing to see Cardinals struggling in this web of tangled polemics. We know what is going on. Since reason and evidence does not support God -belief - rather it supports disbelief; reason and evidence itself had to be stood on its' head or at least debunked as valid, though we all know that in all other areas, we use it all the time.
lol ... I didn't know we were playing the "Gottim" game here ... I thought we were having a knowledge and idea sharing dialogue.
Anyway, what's the problem here?
My point remains the same.
If God provides us the evidence of our liking then we will have no choice but to believe.
If you think otherwise, then it's also your choice. We all have a choice because we are alive.
There are two ways to look at it, and that's a different route that our discussion is taking even though, in my opinion, you were not able to provide any scientific, repeatable verifiable and validated evidence of existence of any such thing called "Hope". This is the same kind of evidence Atheists demand for the existence of God.
1 - When you hope for something, you want someone or something to change the course of what may happen.
For example, you don't know whether it would rain tomorrow or not. It is possible that it may rain and it's possible that it may not rain. Lets give it a 50 50 chances.
So when you hope that it won't rain, you want the course of nature to be changed by some force to make it 100% in favor of no rain. Otherwise, you would NEVER hope for anything.
but when you DO hope for something, who do you expect to do this for you? When you "Hope" for something, you in a way, unconsciously, ask for divine intervention. This is my opinion.
2 - Hope and Trust, in my opinion have an overlap to make it a Venn diagram of faith.
A believer puts an effort to live a balanced and morally conscious life under God's guidance as he Trusts his creator, and then he hopes that he will be among those who will succeeded in the hereafter.
No when I hope for no rain I am not wishing for a change in what is going to happen. If it is a 50/50 chance I am hoping for the no rsin, and that is all. Not a change in the outcome. Demanding scientific evidence for me hoping it does not rain would be as useful as demanding evidence that I like to hear the birds sing or chocolate ice cream.
No request for Devine intervention. Sorry that you are unable to comprehend the very notion that not everyone thinks there is a God looking over them and answering to their wishes. And truthfully if I thought that hoping it doesn't rain tomorrow expecting aan intervention I would feel very guilty that perhaps people who needed the rain were deprived of it just because of me. And in your last statement you did use the word hope like I would have used it so you do understand it's meaning.
A non believer lives their life in a balanced and moral manner and hopes that religious people do not obstruct him or society, bUT has ltitle trust in that not happening.
I also hope that the Edmonton Oilers win the Stanley Cup next year. There is zero expectations that any gods will make that happen because it is what I hope happens. I am sure there are people hoping for each and every team to do the same. Some have been hoping and maybe even praying for Toronto to do it as well since 1967. There may be religious people praying for each team to win it too. So who is God going to choose? Those who prayed for the 30 teams that don't win are going to be let down. For those that hoped for those 30 teams there is always the next year.
If my hoping for something would be a direct request for a god to intervene my hope would be that everyone gets a decent and modern science education, including evolution, physics and climate science.
No when I hope for no rain I am not wishing for a change in what is going to happen. If it is a 50/50 chance I am hoping for the no rsin, and that is all. Not a change in the outcome. Demanding scientific evidence for me hoping it does not rain would be as useful as demanding evidence that I like to hear the birds sing or chocolate ice cream.
No request for Devine intervention. Sorry that you are unable to comprehend the very notion that not everyone thinks there is a God looking over them and answering to their wishes. And truthfully if I thought that hoping it doesn't rain tomorrow expecting aan intervention I would feel very guilty that perhaps people who needed the rain were deprived of it just because of me. And in your last statement you did use the word hope like I would have used it so you do understand it's meaning.
A non believer lives their life in a balanced and moral manner and hopes that religious people do not obstruct him or society, bUT has ltitle trust in that not happening.
If hope has no effect on the outcome then why hope for anything? Why believe in "Hope"? Why use "hope" at all?
If my hoping for something would be a direct request for a god to intervene my hope would be that everyone gets a decent and modern science education, including evolution, physics and climate science.
That's good hope. I hope so too; however, I would rather also hope that people practice more patience, be more tolerant towards everyone, be more forgiving, be less greedy, save resources and be kind to all. And that's for EVERYONE.
If hope has no effect on the outcome then why hope for anything? Why believe in "Hope"? Why use "hope" at all?
It's a short cut from having to say
For my purpose of activity or mood it would be beneficial if there would be zero precipitation on the day following today.
There are lots of words I believe in like nice, happy, wish and hope. I really fail to understand how you cannot understand why someone can hope or wish for something to happen without an expectation of that hope or wish to have an effect on the outcome or that there be a higher being.
So if it would be beneficial to you for their to be no rain you would pray to your God for that and that is all you would do? Every thought you have on what would be good in the future has to be prayed for with an expectation or not thought abiut? To me that sounds like a self Centred way of thinking plus not imaging a good outcome without expecting someone higher up making it so seems dull and unimaginative.
That's good hope. I hope so too; however, I would rather also hope that people practice more patience, be more tolerant towards everyone, be more forgiving, be less greedy, save resources and be kind to all. And that's for EVERYONE.
That is something that we should all work towards with or without gods.
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Gottim. It WAS Cardinal's argument that having reasons to believe destroys faith and Faith gives life meaning.
