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I have trouble with this one and I think it has to do with being raised in a cult. There is a high demand for purity in these groups. My group was big on "get out of her if you don't want to share in her sins." In that world people are responsible for any sins committed by whatever religion they ascribe to. They now have a pedo cover up problem like the Catholic church coming to (new)light. In order for people to stay in that group they have to agree with what the leaders did. They have to agree that the rapes of these children was somehow Godly. I'm sure the ones who have found out and stayed have some pretzel logic going on but thems is the rules.
I know not all sects have this purity standard as they don't claim to be God's True organization like the purists groups.
I know it's all a tactic. I don't hold people responsible for anything but what they do. Some people ARE going along with and trying to cover up abuse. Those are the people I would like to see held responsible.
Yes. While I don't hold present individuals or groups responsible for what the group did in the past, certainly groups and their controllers today ARE responsible for what they do. And if as you say some serious problem
arises and attempts are made to cover it up rather than do anything about it is not onlt reprehensible, but criminal.
This is why I am waiting to see whether, though covering it up, for sure, the Catholic church has tried to fix the problem In House, as it were. If it turns out that the problem is still going on, that ought to signal the end of this greedy, abusive and deluded cult.
The same applies to other groups whether religious or not. A big charity had a scandal recently. The bosses did appear to try to work with the authorities to follow up the complaints.
Now, I'm no Tartuffe. If people in an organisation (or without) want sex, I'm not going to scream "Sin". But when it's not consentual - either because the Other person doesn't want to, or the law says they are too young to give consent, that's a crime, whether the law agrees or not.
The thread about Mormonism (sorry, I won't change) reminded me that we shouldn't hold today's christians responsible for the history of christendom.
We shouldn't hold today's Mormons (sorry, I won't change) posters for polygamy...unless they support it or try to justify it.
I have been pleased, for example, that the Methodist Church near me no longer preaches from the Old Testament. A step in the right direction.
Thoughts?
First this isnt a knock against any specific religion. However, Christ makes it clear that irregardless of what Christian faith you identify as there is a day of reckoning.
Christ does hold "Christendom" responsible: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’ -Matthew 7:21-23
I would think if an individual follows teachings that aren't in keeping with what Christ taught then he or she needs to change. Can't plead ignorance or assume that all is forgiven just because some church leaders or doctrines say this is what one should follow.
First this isnt a knock against any specific religion. However, Christ makes it clear that irregardless of what Christian faith you identify as there is a day of reckoning.
Christ does hold "Christendom" responsible: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’ -Matthew 7:21-23
I would think if an individual follows teachings that aren't in keeping with what Christ taught then he or she needs to change. Can't plead ignorance or assume that all is forgiven just because some church leaders or doctrines say this is what one should follow.
I no longer believe in a day of reckoning, besides which I am a Buddhist-atheist. So you quoting the bible to me has about the same effect as a Hindu speaking in Hindi to you.
Frankly, I think you miss the whole point of the thread.
The thread about Mormonism (sorry, I won't change) reminded me that we shouldn't hold today's christians responsible for the history of christendom.
We shouldn't hold today's Mormons (sorry, I won't change) posters for polygamy...unless they support it or try to justify it.
I have been pleased, for example, that the Methodist Church near me no longer preaches from the Old Testament. A step in the right direction.
Thoughts?
But isn't that exactly what so many of the arguments presented by certain (usually rather prolific)Christians on here do?
Especially any of the atrocities from the old testament .I.E. "God had a good reason"... "He has the right".
That defensive attitude carries over to what ever happens now and/or in the future.
Question though. Is that particular church ignoring the OT because they just don't want to deal with, knowing it's so indefensible or because they're acknowledging that it's all made up and false?
But isn't that exactly what so many of the arguments presented by certain (usually rather prolific)Christians on here do?
Especially any of the atrocities from the old testament .I.E. "God had a good reason"... "He has the right".
That defensive attitude carries over to what ever happens now and/or in the future.
Question though. Is that particular church ignoring the OT because they just don't want to deal with, knowing it's so indefensible or because they're acknowledging that it's all made up and false?
I made that very point: "unless they support it or try to justify it". And not all christians do.
As far as your last question -- I didn't ask them why they mostly ignore the OT. Does it matter?
Congratulations. You have won the Rambling On Award for August 26, 2018.
I fail to see what your family's history of bigamy has to do with anything being discussed here.
I fail to see what gay marriage and bigamy have to do with each other in this discussion.
Then you must be both blind and morally ambivalent. You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
We shouldn't hold today's Mormons (sorry, I won't change) posters for polygamy...unless they support it or try to justify it.
Bigamy and polygamy are choices made by consenting adults, which is exactly what both homosexual marriage and homosexuality are -- choices made by consenting adults.
I pointed out family history to demonstrate the difference between consenting adults and non-consenting adults, and the harm it may cause.
Obviously, you're not wise enough to know the difference.
There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with the Mormon belief in bigamy and polygamy, in spite of your pedantic musings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Your view of all or nothing at all is very Western and very intellectually bankrupt. There is nothing wrong with adopting wisdom from wherever the source.
There is nothing of value pertaining to wisdom in the Old or New Testaments.
There is nothing Jesus said that wasn't already said by Gautama Buddha, or by Confucius, or by the Greek philosophers or addressed by Greek playwrights in their many tragedies, comedies and dramas, or stated by Akkadian and Sumerian kings in their codes of conduct and codes of law.
And all of them said those things centuries or millennia before Jesus existed.
So, it's not like Jesus is special.
There's nothing in the Old Testament of value, either.
Save for the histories of the kings and judges, which are greatly embellished and exaggerated, everything is a plagiarized version of something else.
The 7-day creation myth comes the Sumerian 7-tablets of creation, in which 6 tablets relate the acts of creation and the 7th extols the virtue of the deities, via the Akkadians, Eblaites, Amorites (whom most refer to as "Babyonians"), Assyrians and Ugarits.
The 10 antediluvian patriarchs from the 10 antediluvian Sumerian kings, via the same aforementioned links.
The story of the Garden of Eden is from the Sumerian story via the same links.
The flood myth is from Sumer via the same links.
Even the story of Sodom & Gomorrah comes from the Akkadian story of Erra and the Howling Wind. Erra was the Akkadian name for the deity Ninurta and in the original Sumerian version, it is Ninurta (a son of Enlil) and Ningal (a son of Enki) who destroyed Sodom & Gomorah and "the cities on the plain" (all the texts from civilizations existing before the Hebrews use that phrase, but no one knows why -- it was apparently important somehow). Note that the Hebrew patriarch Terah was the chief priest for Ninurta in his home city of Ur.
The Book of Job? That's a copy of an earlier text written in Sumer. The Hebrew texts still employ the same 32 Sumerian/Akkadian loan-words throughout the text.
All of the psalms, proverbs and lamentations are copies of Ugaritic works, and the Ugaritic works are copies of older works from other civilizations.
The 12 Latter Prophets and their views on social justice?
Nothing original there....it all came from the western Greeks, who were influenced by the eastern Greeks -- the Dorians, Ionians and Phrygians in Anatolia, who probably got it from the Hittites and Hurrians, who were influenced by Sumer & Akkad.
Wisdom is knowing when you're reading 6th-, 7th-, 8th- and 9th-hand information.
And a wise person would be seeking out the original sources of that information.
There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with the Mormon belief in bigamy and polygamy, in spite of your pedantic musings.
Bigamy is illegal. Polygamy is illegal. And the main body of the Mormon Church believes they are immoral.
There is nothing of value pertaining to wisdom in the Old or New Testaments. I never discuss wisdom in the Old Testament. Not saying there isn't any. But overall the OT is a despicable document.
There is nothing Jesus said that wasn't already said by Gautama Buddha, or by Confucius, or by the Greek philosophers or addressed by Greek playwrights in their many tragedies, comedies and dramas, or stated by Akkadian and Sumerian kings in their codes of conduct and codes of law. I'm Buddhist. But no. the teachings of Jesus, while similar, are not the same as Buddha's.
And all of them said those things centuries or millennia before Jesus existed.
So, it's not like Jesus is special. Considering the huge number of people that follow him, I'd say there is something special. His followers -- blind as they may often be -- outnumber those of Confuccius, the Greek playwrights, Akkadian, or the Sumerian kings.
There's nothing in the Old Testament of value, either. Nothing? That's a stupid statement.
...
All of the psalms, proverbs and lamentations are copies of Ugaritic works, and the Ugaritic works are copies of older works from other civilizations. Perhaps. Or is there a common wisdom?
The thread about Mormonism (sorry, I won't change) reminded me that we shouldn't hold today's christians responsible for the history of christendom.
We shouldn't hold today's Mormons (sorry, I won't change) posters for polygamy...unless they support it or try to justify it.
I have been pleased, for example, that the Methodist Church near me no longer preaches from the Old Testament. A step in the right direction.
Thoughts?
The history of Christendom is the history of the perpetuation of religious dogmatic ignorance. Christians perpetuate Christianity. Mormons claim to be Christians. Mormons also claim that God Elohim lives on a planet named Kolab. Enough said.
Not preaching the OT allows the Methodists to distance themselves from the hideous ogre that was the God of the OT. Without the OT and original sin however, what exactly does the death of Jesus represent the salvation from?
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