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I have no issue with the idea of a Prime Mover/First Cause/Cosmic Consciousness/the Force, etc., or other pantheistic/pandesitic, panentheistic/panendeistic concepts. I find them quite fascinating and much of my focus in my field has centered around these concepts. I actually identify as a relative metaphysical atheist - agnostic (I waver between hard and soft) pandeist.
But people have to first have an adequate knowledge base of these concepts in order to form thoughts or positions on them, and I've run into both classical theists and nontheists that are utterly clueless about metaphysical concepts outside Abrahamic theism. They may be quick to hash out the usual tired arguments for/against El/Yahweh, Jesus and Holy Spirit (for trinitarians), but have little or nothing to say about Advaita's Brahman or Mazdaism's panentheistic conception of Ahura Mazda, two concepts that continue to fascinate me 10 years after first exploring and studying them. I wrote a thesis that touched on both, actually.
I think the issue with "atheists" and the idea of "God" is that the Abrahamic concept is most relevant to Western interests and criticism, because hyper-religious Americans aren't invoking Brahman or Ahura Mazda in their daily life and political aims. They don't pose a threat, but neither do they register as a curiosity because they just aren't fixtures in our cultural psyche. Most Western nontheists are too concerned about the threats the Abrahamic religions pose than some abstract-seemingly new age-y (but not) Eastern "higher power." My husband is a strong/explicit atheist that has studied many different religious traditions, and while he's not an agnostic pandeist, he's also fascinated by other ideas and concepts and we talk extensively about Advaita, Taoism and how the concept of the Force was influenced by a variety of Eastern philosophical concepts. He appreciates and respects these traditions.
Yes, you are quite right about being concerned about the threat Abrahamic religions pose to -- not just our freedoms, but freedom in general.
Never in all of human history has there ever been a free, peaceful, democratic, egalitarian civilization which had its dominant religon -- and its clergy -- calling the shots and making the laws. Each and every time this has happened, that civilization became oppressive, misogynistic, warlike, horribly unjust, authoritarian, and with an autocratic, often fascist dictatorship.
In America (I'm not sure where you're from), people known as "Dominionists" continue to creep ever closer to real power with every new election. If you're not aware, Dominionists are those who believe the Bible should be the ultimate law of the land, not the U.S. Constitution, the Supreme Court, or even the police. And when I say "Bible," I'm not talking about the warm and fuzzy stuff that Jesus talked about.
Oh no, it's not about loving thy neighbor, it's not about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's not about helping the sick and the poor. It's not about being meek and humble or the avoidance of pride and greed.
It's all about slamming the hammer down using all of those old, barbaric, and highly unjust rules found in the Old Testament ... like having a state supreme court judge, Roy Moore, literally standing on the Alabama Supreme Court steps, and announcing that the government ought to have the right to round up all the gays and murder them. Or how the 1st Amendment to the Constitution only applies to Christianity and Christians. (Meanwhile, this same sanctimonious idiot stalks teenage girls in local malls to the point where he was actually banned from malls in his local area.)
That is what Dominionists are like. Roy Moore. Ted Cruz. Mike Huckabee. Rick Perry. And far too many others in politics are actually Dominionists.
The threat of America becoming the first Christian version of Iran or Afghanistan or even Saudi Arabia is very real -- especially if the American people get duped by lofty proselytizing or if they simply stay home instead of voting.
BUT ... having said all of that, I know very little about Far Eastern mysticism and religion despite coming from that region of the world.
It's not that I don't have a vague sort of interest, but for most of my life, I just saw religion as religion and none of them were at all healthy for human civilization. These days, after picking up tidbits of information here and there, I understand that the Far Eastern religions are nothing like the aggressive, barking mad Abrahamic religions. The more I've learned about them, the more wisdom I see in their philosophies.
As Transponder said, I couldn't offer a lot in the realm of conversation, though I imagine I would have a truckload of questions.
Yes, you are quite right about being concerned about the threat Abrahamic religions pose to -- not just our freedoms, but freedom in general.
Never in all of human history has there ever been a free, peaceful, democratic, egalitarian civilization which had its dominant religon -- and its clergy -- calling the shots and making the laws. Each and every time this has happened, that civilization became oppressive, misogynistic, warlike, horribly unjust, authoritarian, and with an autocratic, often fascist dictatorship.
In America (I'm not sure where you're from), people known as "Dominionists" continue to creep ever closer to real power with every new election. If you're not aware, Dominionists are those who believe the Bible should be the ultimate law of the land, not the U.S. Constitution, the Supreme Court, or even the police. And when I say "Bible," I'm not talking about the warm and fuzzy stuff that Jesus talked about.
Oh no, it's not about loving thy neighbor, it's not about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's not about helping the sick and the poor. It's not about being meek and humble or the avoidance of pride and greed.
It's all about slamming the hammer down using all of those old, barbaric, and highly unjust rules found in the Old Testament ... like having a state supreme court judge, Roy Moore, literally standing on the Alabama Supreme Court steps, and announcing that the government ought to have the right to round up all the gays and murder them. Or how the 1st Amendment to the Constitution only applies to Christianity and Christians. (Meanwhile, this same sanctimonious idiot stalks teenage girls in local malls to the point where he was actually banned from malls in his local area.)
That is what Dominionists are like. Roy Moore. Ted Cruz. Mike Huckabee. Rick Perry. And far too many others in politics are actually Dominionists.
The threat of America becoming the first Christian version of Iran or Afghanistan or even Saudi Arabia is very real -- especially if the American people get duped by lofty proselytizing or if they simply stay home instead of voting.
BUT ... having said all of that, I know very little about Far Eastern mysticism and religion despite coming from that region of the world.
It's not that I don't have a vague sort of interest, but for most of my life, I just saw religion as religion and none of them were at all healthy for human civilization. These days, after picking up tidbits of information here and there, I understand that the Far Eastern religions are nothing like the aggressive, barking mad Abrahamic religions. The more I've learned about them, the more wisdom I see in their philosophies.
As Transponder said, I couldn't offer a lot in the realm of conversation, though I imagine I would have a truckload of questions.
I was once a hyper-fundamentalist that championed dominionism. It's a core theology of the cult I was brought up around and active in. I'm intimately familiar. But yeah...god-talk centers around Western theology, and for good reason. It's currently the most damaging and threatening to Western, especially American, culture and society, at every level. It's difficult for most to ponder other ideas and concepts, even if they're more palatable, when you're preoccupied by a frightening reality, in the thick of oppressive regimes. America reborn as Republic of Gilead. :shudder:
I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
Well hello, Miss Hepburn.
As many pointed out, I can't respect what doesn't exist.
I don't mean to be so trite when I say that, but it is the most honest answer I can give.
As for the concept of the Christian God, well, that's another matter entirely.
I'm sure you've probably seen at least a few of my posts, and I've shared my feelings about Yahweh quite extensively.
Bottom line, though, is that I cannot respect a God who has infinite power and thus infinite options and yet, time and time again, resorts to murder, genocide, psychological abuse, and plain old barbarism to accomplish his goals or to solve his problems.
Cannot a being with so much wisdom, intelligence, and raw power come up with a better solution than to simply kill everyone who disobeys? Or who even makes a silly mistake? Or who has a city built in the wrong place and therefore it *has* to be eradicated?
Nor could I respect a God who would torture forever good and decent people for no other reason than failing to worship him.
I've always believed that if a truly good and just supreme being existed -- one who truly cared about the sentient beings he created -- the world would be an entirely different kind of place.
God releasing all the sin and suffering in this world for countless generations simply because two child-like humans committed one act of disobedience is perhaps the single most immoral act ever undertaken by any being anywhere in the history of the cosmos.
And yet Christians are still willing to blame themselves and humanity for it all. The fact that God and the Bible managed to twist their minds to such an extent as to be willing to take the blame for something that was entirely the fault of God is certainly in the top 10 most immoral acts ever committed by any being anywhere in the history of the cosmos.
Where is all of the love? The justice? The compassion?
Some Christians are still willing to blame natural disasters and barbaric acts of terrorism on our manifest sins -- which tells me that those Christians believe that, even today, God is indiscriminately killing and destroying just like he did in the Old Testament.
But I ask again, where is the love? The justice? The compassion? If God is willing to slam New Orleans with a massive hurricane, hurting mostly the poor, I might add, because he's furious over homosexuality ... or if God is willing to steer a psychopath into a school where he can slaughter two dozen kindergarteners because God is mad that we took prayer out of schools ... where is the equal but opposite reaction when humanity does something good? Did we see mass miracles when the world came together after 9/11? Well ... no. And we never will see anything like that.
Does God ever reward? Where are the mass miracles? You never hear on the news about everyone being cured instantly in some hospital somewhere. You never hear about food appearing in places where there is mass starvation. You never hear about how Islamic militants suddenly feel like making peace with the West and apologizing profusely for their acts of terror.
No, nothing like that. God is only willing to bring out the "big guns" to punish, but never to reward. If we get a reward at all, it comes in the form of a crying statue in some rural and remote village in Brazil where hardly anyone can even see it. Or it comes in the form of an image on a piece of toast that vaguely looks like the Virgin Mary. Wow! Aren't you excited, yet! Sometimes the Virgin will appear on pizza, in an apple core, in the grains of a tree stump, as a water stain underneath a bridge, and even as a potato chip shaped in her image ... none of which means anything anyway if you're not Catholic.
Maybe ... just maybe, if God is feeling especially pleased with humanity, he'll select one random person, just one, mind you, and cure that person's medical ailment or perhaps save him/her from certain death in a car crash. Maybe.
Anyhow, I could go on at length as to why I cannot respect the God-concept endorsed by the Abrahamic religions. Too much book worship and virtually no spirituality. Too much obsessing over the proper use of genitalia, 3,000 years of excess baggage that is mostly obsolete, overt racism and misogyny, etc. etc. *yawn* It goes on forever.
Another stunning post, and yes, God could let everyone know that he was there. But that would apparently invalidate Faith which is only of value enough to get the believer through the celestial batwing doors if you believe something in spite of the evidence. What sort of crazy religious -filtering system is this? How many mentally inbred Christian sects do we have smugly telling themselves that they are the ones who will be hobnobbing with God eternally while the rest of Humanity fries?
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
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In honesty, I actually think I have more respect for the idea of a God than a lot of religious people do if we are looking at behavior of those professing to be Christians especially. I get the most crap from Christians who profess they have a God to obey. That behavior is no big deal for an atheist to display because at least we can claim ignorance since we do not have an obligation to obey a God, “Christians” do. I flirted with straight non-religious Deism before committing to atheism. My issue was never with “God” but those who “follow” him.
I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
If we're not talking of the God of the Bible, then of what are we talking?
Of course, the answer is that we're talking of millions of imaginary friends*, and if we want to have an idea of what each of these imaginary friends entails we must be the interlocutor of each of the millions of imaginers who imagine those imaginary friends.
And why is that thing, based on imaginings and not on the Bible, called 'God'? For 'God' is the proper name of the deity of the Abrahamic religions. It's as if someone demanded respect for 'Darth Vader', then insisted that no one could use any of the Star Wars films or books to judge Darth Vader. Maybe that someone insisted that Darth Vader was really quite kindly. "Darth is pure love!"
Would you respect that? And would you be interested in going through the hassle of speaking to any of those Darth-worshippers whose concept of Darth is not the Star Wars canon but, say, the imagination of Larry from Toledo?
* - No offense intended, but if you've created your own idea of God and this idea can only be understood by others if you explain it to them, then what else is it?
As many pointed out, I can't respect what doesn't exist.
I don't mean to be so trite when I say that, but it is the most honest answer I can give.
As for the concept of the Christian God, well, that's another matter entirely.
I'm sure you've probably seen at least a few of my posts, and I've shared my feelings about Yahweh quite extensively.
Bottom line, though, is that I cannot respect a God who has infinite power and thus infinite options and yet, time and time again, resorts to murder, genocide, psychological abuse, and plain old barbarism to accomplish his goals or to solve his problems.
Cannot a being with so much wisdom, intelligence, and raw power come up with a better solution than to simply kill everyone who disobeys? Or who even makes a silly mistake? Or who has a city built in the wrong place and therefore it *has* to be eradicated?
Nor could I respect a God who would torture forever good and decent people for no other reason than failing to worship him.
I've always believed that if a truly good and just supreme being existed -- one who truly cared about the sentient beings he created -- the world would be an entirely different kind of place.
God releasing all the sin and suffering in this world for countless generations simply because two child-like humans committed one act of disobedience is perhaps the single most immoral act ever undertaken by any being anywhere in the history of the cosmos.
And yet Christians are still willing to blame themselves and humanity for it all. The fact that God and the Bible managed to twist their minds to such an extent as to be willing to take the blame for something that was entirely the fault of God is certainly in the top 10 most immoral acts ever committed by any being anywhere in the history of the cosmos.
Where is all of the love? The justice? The compassion?
Some Christians are still willing to blame natural disasters and barbaric acts of terrorism on our manifest sins -- which tells me that those Christians believe that, even today, God is indiscriminately killing and destroying just like he did in the Old Testament.
But I ask again, where is the love? The justice? The compassion? If God is willing to slam New Orleans with a massive hurricane, hurting mostly the poor, I might add, because he's furious over homosexuality ... or if God is willing to steer a psychopath into a school where he can slaughter two dozen kindergarteners because God is mad that we took prayer out of schools ... where is the equal but opposite reaction when humanity does something good? Did we see mass miracles when the world came together after 9/11? Well ... no. And we never will see anything like that.
Does God ever reward? Where are the mass miracles? You never hear on the news about everyone being cured instantly in some hospital somewhere. You never hear about food appearing in places where there is mass starvation. You never hear about how Islamic militants suddenly feel like making peace with the West and apologizing profusely for their acts of terror.
No, nothing like that. God is only willing to bring out the "big guns" to punish, but never to reward. If we get a reward at all, it comes in the form of a crying statue in some rural and remote village in Brazil where hardly anyone can even see it. Or it comes in the form of an image on a piece of toast that vaguely looks like the Virgin Mary. Wow! Aren't you excited, yet! Sometimes the Virgin will appear on pizza, in an apple core, in the grains of a tree stump, as a water stain underneath a bridge, and even as a potato chip shaped in her image ... none of which means anything anyway if you're not Catholic.
Maybe ... just maybe, if God is feeling especially pleased with humanity, he'll select one random person, just one, mind you, and cure that person's medical ailment or perhaps save him/her from certain death in a car crash. Maybe.
Anyhow, I could go on at length as to why I cannot respect the God-concept endorsed by the Abrahamic religions. Too much book worship and virtually no spirituality. Too much obsessing over the proper use of genitalia, 3,000 years of excess baggage that is mostly obsolete, overt racism and misogyny, etc. etc. *yawn* It goes on forever.
Shirina, surely you know better than to think that anything but savage, barbaric concepts of God could ever come from ignorant, primitive, savage, and barbaric people. The flawed concepts of God are entirely from the flawed and fallible human minds that conceived them. They have nothing to do with the actual God that exists. But we have within a standard by which you have and everyone else can judge what actually is and is not from God. We commonly refer to it as our heart knowing full well that it is our brain that provides the actual access. That inner sense of right, wrong, decency, love, compassion, mercy, etc. is our true guide.
In my view, it is the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant instituted by Christ. In your view, it is your conscience that produced your guilt over that poor bird. In my past, hunting was a staple of our diet. But one day, I shot a rabbit from a long distance with a 22 rifle just to show off. It keeled over, but when we dressed it for dinner, there was no bullet hole. I had simply scared that poor little rabbit to death. I never went hunting again. My experience in deep meditation was still years away in my future, but I had the conscience nonetheless.
Your post makes two important points, old mate. One vitally important. That's the first one - there is much more in common between God -believers who do not respect the God depicted in the Bible, the Bible or indeed any organised religion spawned by the Bible, and atheists who actually base their atheism on not knowing whether there is a god or not, but not having Faith that is one in spite of the evidence, than there is between Sortagoddists and Biblegod - and Jesus (with or without Hellthreat and hold the onion -rings) believers.
But still the Irreligious Theists feel impelled to oppose atheists and work to support the Fundamentalist push to put prayer back in school, bigotry back in law and Genesis in the science -class, even though they actually don't want Christian Fundamentalist Sharya law any more than we do.
The second point is the basis of human morality and ethics - reciprocity. It is an instinct, not some sort of magical being bestowed upon humans to make them a bit more like the angels. Elephants seem to have this feeling. There is even evidence that sabre -tooth tigers did; they fed an injured member of their tribe (so the bones indicate) till their injury healed. Evolved instinct, sure. Just as with us. Only we can think about it and put ourselves in the place of that poor rabbit.
We know what's doing this, Mystic. There is absolutely no good reason to link it to some Biblequote, other than you like to believe it.
Shirina, surely you know better than to think that anything but savage, barbaric concepts of God could ever come from ignorant, primitive, savage, and barbaric people. The flawed concepts of God are entirely from the flawed and fallible human minds that conceived them. They have nothing to do with the actual God that exists. But we have within a standard by which you have and everyone else can judge what actually is and is not from God. We commonly refer to it as our heart knowing full well that it is our brain that provides the actual access. That inner sense of right, wrong, decency, love, compassion, mercy, etc. is our true guide.
In my view, it is the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant instituted by Christ. In your view, it is your conscience that produced your guilt over that poor bird. In my past, hunting was a staple of our diet. But one day, I shot a rabbit from a long distance with a 22 rifle just to show off. It keeled over, but when we dressed it for dinner, there was no bullet hole. I had simply scared that poor little rabbit to death. I never went hunting again. My experience in deep meditation was still years away in my future, but I had the conscience nonetheless.
The only way that I can critique this post is by sounding sarcastic. You frequently remind us of how you see yourself as a brilliant, almost mystical presence here on this forum...way above the rest of us peons. I look at this post of yours and see writing that is childish...and I don't mean that in a good sense.
You talk about "The flawed concepts of God are entirely from the flawed and fallible human minds that conceived them". All concepts of God are from fallible human minds. And your mind, despite your ego, is no better than anyone else's who have totally different concepts of god. Not only can you not show us any proof of god, but you can't demonstrate that your mind is any more unique than millions of other people who have their own ideas about god. With all your talk, you haven't convinced one person that your viewpoint is the right viewpoint. So I'm thinking it's about time that we paid no attention to that man behind the curtain.
You say, "everyone else can judge what actually is and is not from God". LOL. How many have failed in that. Apparently half the world...and more.
You say, "our heart...That inner sense of right, wrong, decency, love, compassion, mercy, etc. is our true guide". I guess you don't get around much. Millions of people who are not god-lovers know right from wrong, understand and practice decency, love, compassion, and mercy. And it has nothing to do with some romantic notion of what our heart is.
You say, "God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant instituted by Christ". I reject this totally unless you're willing to admit that there are lots of bad things written on our heart as well. I simply won't buy into this idea that everything good in the world is due to god, and everything bad in the world is due to man. When I was a principal and some parent or teacher would put all blame on me for something that went wrong, I'd say, "Okay...since I am that powerful, most of the time, when things go so well, that's all to my credit, too". Which of course is ridiculous. Man does what MAN DOES.
Your story about the poor rabbit. God did it. If nothing else, then by not acting. And, btw, didn't I see that story on "Father Knows Best" back in the 1950s?
All this knowing what's written in your heart and the related crap, we've heard it all before...from dictators like Juan and Evita Peron to ministers (like Jim Jones).
You have every right to believe as you wish. But until you demonstrate some evidence of the validity of your beliefs, quite trying to be another now disgraced minister.
Your post makes two important points, old mate. One vitally important. That's the first one - there is much more in common between God -believers who do not respect the God depicted in the Bible, the Bible or indeed any organised religion spawned by the Bible, and atheists who actually base their atheism on not knowing whether there is a god or not, but not having Faith that is one in spite of the evidence, than there is between Sortagoddists and Biblegod - and Jesus (with or without Hellthreat and hold the onion -rings) believers.
But still the Irreligious Theists feel impelled to oppose atheists and work to support the Fundamentalist push to put prayer back in school, bigotry back in law and Genesis in the science -class, even though they actually don't want Christian Fundamentalist Sharya law any more than we do.
The second point is the basis of human morality and ethics - reciprocity. It is an instinct, not some sort of magical being bestowed upon humans to make them a bit more like the angels. Elephants seem to have this feeling. There is even evidence that sabre -tooth tigers did; they fed an injured member of their tribe (so the bones indicate) till their injury healed. Evolved instinct, sure. Just as with us. Only we can think about it and put ourselves in the place of that poor rabbit.
We know what's doing this, Mystic. There is absolutely no good reason to link it to some Biblequote, other than you like to believe it.
Wait, can you explain this statement? I don't think that's correct at all, but I am not certain here who your Irreligious Theists are.
I know NO ONE, except perhaps my born-again uncle who knows Jesus better than anyone else, who wants forced prayer back in schools, and I don't think even he would want Genesis to be taught as science, but I could be wrong about that.
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