I don't get how so many are Christians (Jesus, atheists, attend)
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I have heard a few who still believe in a sorta -god are happy to have given up the boredom of Church, and yet others who are willing to attend U/U churches while happy to have given up any but the vaguest sorta -god. I, myself, am happy to have given up either, long ago.
There's room in a secular society for all of us, and for those who believe anything they like, provided they keep it to their group and do not try to impose it on society. They can even have their festivals, celebrations even financial support from the members. but they will have no clout with law, Politics, (airlines ) education or those who do not belong.
You'll have to either strip them of their voting rights or simply impose your version of no-nonsense communism.
Such an envisioned knowingly (as distinct from lip -service to and voting -clout for religion) secular/humaist society will only happen when people overwhelmingly give up on religion and the voting reflects that. We should have learned our lesson about a government with an agenda trying to legislate its' beliefs onto the populace.
Such an envisioned knowingly (as distinct from lip -service to and voting -clout for religion) secular/humaist society will only happen when people overwhelmingly give up on religion and the voting reflects that. We should have learned our lesson about a government with an agenda trying to legislate its' beliefs onto the populace.
The religion is capitalism, smathered with a bit of humanism here and there.
I'm happy for those who find a home in atheism. But some of the "converts" from religion to atheism (or paganism, etc) will eventually find their way back to a more liberal church once they realize what they have missed about church while being away.
Possible. But I will say that as an atheist, I probably know more atheists than you do, and I've never met a single one who eventually "found their way" back.
That's anecdata of course, but I'd love to see some credible numbers.
I have heard a few who still believe in a sorta -god are happy to have given up the boredom of Church, and yet others who are willing to attend U/U churches while happy to have given up any but the vaguest sorta -god. I, myself, am happy to have given up either, long ago.
There's room in a secular society for all of us, and for those who believe anything they like, provided they keep it to their group and do not try to impose it on society. They can even have their festivals, publication, celebrations even financial support from the members, and even government for cultural and artistic purposes. but they will have no clout with law, Politics, (airlines ) education or those who do not belong.
The UU churches are where many of the atheists and pagans wind up, especially if they were used to attending church. I meant that some of those UU people eventually return to a more traditional church as well.
Or as I like to put it: until the pain of remaining the same exceeds the pain of changing, people will not change.
Yepper. That is a very succinct description of the mental calculus involved, whether we realize it is going on, or not. I suspect there are as many different reasons for reaching (or not reaching...) that tipping point as there are people.
For me, the "pain of changing" had nothing to do with the church or rituals or beliefs.... the shaky ground on which all of that was built had been apparent to me for decades. But the pain (threat) of alienating or disappointing loved ones.... that was the big barrier (and still is, in some respects). The power of that childhood indoctrination is not to be denied.
Possible. But I will say that as an atheist, I probably know more atheists than you do, and I've never met a single one who eventually "found their way" back.
That's anecdata of course, but I'd love to see some credible numbers.
Nor have I apart from one atheist spokeswoman who then went back to religion. In retrospect the speech I watched (before the reconversion That's a word we don't see too often) was ...Odd..it didn't seem to say anything. I just had a few doubts.
Apart from that we just have the conversion of people who might have been outspoken atheists but hadn't actually learned the arguments. I'm thinking of Malcom Muggeridge, a waspish little bighead even as an atheist (and marxist, as I recall) and no better as a Christian. There have been a myriad Others who claim to be converted atheists but who know nothing about the arguments for atheism.
So I put them down as converts from non -thinking atheists, which is to say, they never did the debates and so were easy meat for the very well -crafted evangelical packages. And they can be very persuasive, cunning and dishonest if need be and lying for Jesus is apparently reckoned Ok if it saves some souls.
Of course the most famous convert is Anthony Flew. Very sad case. He was frankly fooled. He never became religious, of course, but he was persuaded to be Theist by the I/C argument. I think he realised in the end that he'd been fooled. A good example in the end of an atheist who would be persuaded by convincing evidence, and a warning against being Rushed into theism before the results are in - as they are trying to do with NDE's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest
The religion is capitalism, smathered with a bit of humanism here and there.
Capital is indeed king. But rather like democracy, it has shewn itself to be the worst of all systems - apart from all the others. Capitalism together with competitive technology has given us a standard of living that a medieval peasant could never have dreamed of. And only the top bod protected by the tribal tugs plus the mumbo -jumboists preachers exploiting the duped masses lived better than the scum..apart from trade and technology made a decent bit of cash that even the Elite couldn't ignore. I don't mind or even object capitalism; trade gave us a decent way of life. But it can't be allowed to do whatever it likes.
But don't listen to my ramblings...what do I know about politics or economics?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-13-2018 at 12:48 PM..
Possible. But I will say that as an atheist, I probably know more atheists than you do, and I've never met a single one who eventually "found their way" back.
That's anecdata of course, but I'd love to see some credible numbers.
I would agree.
I have know people who have left "the" church (whichever one), who eventually went back to some other church. But at no time did they describe themselves as being atheist. It was about finding a church that matched their beliefs.
The UU churches are where many of the atheists and pagans wind up, especially if they were used to attending church. I meant that some of those UU people eventually return to a more traditional church as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
Do you know some or are you just guessing?
That's my thought, too. You have some evidence of that, Ozzy or it is just wishful thinking?
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) education or those who do not belong.
That's a word we don't see too often) was ...Odd..it didn't seem to say anything. I just had a few doubts.
