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If the new future includes consequence free killing based on your racial makeup, it's no different from the past.
They are free to consequence-free kill each other as well. Like Texans and Floridians. So your idea that Indians are as racist (rather than casteist) as a lot of white European colonizers is unlikely.
How how do you propose for the Indian government explain to the islanders that they are part of India, what India is and of all the laws and rights of citizens of India. Be precise as they only speak a language that only these islanders know.
With arrows to their face, most likely,
or a murderous invading army, given that Joe "loves preserving life" so much as is normal for European colonizers with their heads up their wazoo. Don't get me wrong, some of my foreparents were European colonizers themselves.
When has a dictator of North Korea been punished for lawlessness?
The issue here is the colonizing eye sees that the Sentinelese wouldn't be able to defend themselves.
I'd support "saving" the people of North Korea from the backwardness of their rulers trying to protect (and equalize everyone outside the government to) their farm-workers, before intruding into the North Sentinel Island.
With arrows to their face, most likely,
or a murderous invading army, given that Joe "loves preserving life" so much as is normal for European colonizers with their heads up their wazoo. Don't get me wrong, some of my foreparents were European colonizers themselves.
You might need to move on from the whole coloniser thing - I suspect this is really just about a bunch of people living in fear of the outside world,and I suspect their ruling class maintains this status quo through half truths and because of their own ignorance.
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
As a wise quote says, "short memory is a privilege of the oppressor."
I don't put too much faith in wise quotes -they have a tendency of being situation dependent. Better to judge situations on their own merit, rather than reaching for cliches.
You might need to move on from the whole coloniser thing - I suspect this is really just about a bunch of people living in fear of the outside world,and I suspect their ruling class maintains this status quo through half truths and because of their own ignorance.
It's an analysis of your outlook, and the type of culture that raised it. "You suspect" is just not good enough to the Indian government and their well-educated scientists on anthropology and disease (who happen to agree with ours), plus, why should the Indian government care about your imagined concerns, you certainly don't care about their well-experienced thoughts.
Quote:
I don't put too much faith in wise quotes -they have a tendency of being situation dependent. Better to judge situations on their own merit, rather than reaching for cliches.
No faith is needed in wisdom, and the truth is never a cliche. It is self-evident and undeniable except by liars and the self-deluded. The bias and privilege of the oppressor is not a cliche, its an anthropologically investigatable fact. To "judge the situation" by throwing out obvious wisdom and logic would not be correct at all, although it would be humanly common.
Otherwise, I or the Indian government can just say that your colonial attitudes are not useful wisdom but simply a cliche that should be ignored without any further logical analysis.
It's an analysis of your outlook, and the type of culture that raised it. "You suspect" is just not good enough to the Indian government and their well-educated scientists on anthropology and disease (who happen to agree with ours), plus, why should the Indian government care about your imagined concerns, you certainly don't care about their well-experienced thoughts.
Yeah...I think I'm going to be on the side of the people who don't make assumptions about the culture of tribe that nobody knows anything about. Sorry Joe. I was about to say I agreed with you for once about something...that there's probably a great deal of ignorance that goes into the decisions of the Sentinelese, but LuminousTruth got here first, and you did phrase your statement in a way that might imply that they're not just ignorant, but have a culture ruled by a sort of abusive caste system or something...which we don't know is the case. Maybe they're ruled by one, morbidly obese shaman who says he gets to eat all the meat and the good foods and everyone else has to subsist upon insects and sand, because that is the will of the spirits. Alternatively, maybe they have a loving, familial environment where the closest thing they have to a ruling caste are respected elders who long for nothing more than the safety of their grandkids...and they've all known each other forever, and they're all one, big happy family, and they spend most of their time singing merry songs about how much they love one another. We just don't know.
Quote:
No faith is needed in wisdom, and the truth is never a cliche. It is self-evident and undeniable except by liars and the self-deluded. The bias and privilege of the oppressor is not a cliche, its an anthropologically investigatable fact. To "judge the situation" by throwing out obvious wisdom and logic would not be correct at all, although it would be humanly common.
Otherwise, I or the Indian government can just say that your colonial attitudes are not useful wisdom but simply a cliche that should be ignored without any further logical analysis.
It's an analysis of your outlook, and the type of culture that raised it. "You suspect" is just not good enough to the Indian government and their well-educated scientists on anthropology and disease (who happen to agree with ours), plus, why should the Indian government care about your imagined concerns, you certainly don't care about their well-experienced thoughts.
What outlook is that? -that a country that claims another territory [even if the territories inhabitants have no desire to belong, or even knowledge of what this means] should do all it can to keep the inhabitants and outsiders safe?
If that's colonialism, then colonialism sounds entirely reasonable, and something that is rooted in respect for human rights and human lives.
Quote:
No faith is needed in wisdom, and the truth is never a cliche. It is self-evident and undeniable except by liars and the self-deluded. The bias and privilege of the oppressor is not a cliche, its an anthropologically investigatable fact. To "judge the situation" by throwing out obvious wisdom and logic would not be correct at all, although it would be humanly common.
Otherwise, I or the Indian government can just say that your colonial attitudes are not useful wisdom but simply a cliche that should be ignored without any further logical analysis.
A quote isn't wisdom -it's a collection of words that may, or may not be relevant -who's the oppressor here exactly?
You've managed to miss the whole point I've been making about India's role -if they're going to claim the islanders as citizens [which is colonial in itself], then they need to make sure it's citizens play by the rules -the idea that a refugee boat gets washed ashore, and it's occupants slaughtered, isn't wildly unrealistic.
You can bleat on all you want about colonialism, but this is a story about the right of humans to interact with other humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
They are free to consequence-free kill each other as well. Like Texans and Floridians. So your idea that Indians are as racist (rather than casteist) as a lot of white European colonizers is unlikely.
You've missed the point here -a mainlander can't kill on these islands, without consequence -that privilege is a function of ethnicity.
Yeah...I think I'm going to be on the side of the people who don't make assumptions about the culture of tribe that nobody knows anything about. Sorry Joe. I was about to say I agreed with you for once about something...that there's probably a great deal of ignorance that goes into the decisions of the Sentinelese, but LuminousTruth got here first, and you did phrase your statement in a way that might imply that they're not just ignorant, but have a culture ruled by a sort of abusive caste system or something...which we don't know is the case. Maybe they're ruled by one, morbidly obese shaman who says he gets to eat all the meat and the good foods and everyone else has to subsist upon insects and sand, because that is the will of the spirits. Alternatively, maybe they have a loving, familial environment where the closest thing they have to a ruling caste are respected elders who long for nothing more than the safety of their grandkids...and they've all known each other forever, and they're all one, big happy family, and they spend most of their time singing merry songs about how much they love one another. We just don't know.
They may well be, and they might not be - I don't claim to know.
What I do think, is that finding out whether or not such conditions exist, seems secondary to the idea that primitive humans should be left to exist in that state. It's a reserve dedicated to a tribe, not to individuals.
If that was even one islander that was kept there only by half truths, or from ignorant misinformation, then the same human rights should be extended to that islander, that in principle are applied to all humans.
They may well be, and they might not be - I don't claim to know.
What I do think, is that finding out whether or not such conditions exist, seems secondary to the idea that primitive humans should be left to exist in that state. It's a reserve dedicated to a tribe, not to individuals.
If that was even one islander that was kept there only by half truths, or from ignorant misinformation, then the same human rights should be extended to that islander, that in principle are applied to all humans.
No matter which religious view you hold, most people's life goals are driven by ignorant misinformation. If you're Christian and Christianity is correct, about 2/3 of the planet are wrong. If you're Muslim, it's about 4/5. If you're secular or Hindu, it's a little more than that. Access to modern knowledge still, apparently, makes it very easy to people to have life goals that are totally off the ideal mark.
What would probably be for the best though...would be for them to learn about modern medicine and things like that so they could make choices for themselves. I think I do agree with a perspective you seem to have that they're not knowledgeable enough to be making fully informed decisions about their isolationism. They don't know what outsiders can offer them. Other contacted tribes do. They've often suffered from disease and at times exploitation...but they see the inventions the outside world has and perhaps they have something closer to the option of maybe getting a bunch of vaccinations and moving into a place where they can learn about astronomy or physics or whatever.
I do think that it's sad that they'll probably never know what they're missing. They'll never know if they want their lifestyle more than the outside world. They'll inevitably not know that, even if they have the best of intentions regarding their fellow Sentinelese.
I don't see any safe way to teach them about that though...and the world has all sorts of problems that just can't be solved...and I think there's no way to be sure they have a worse culture than we do. Unlike us, who often have, or at least had, jobs we disliked for years that involve sitting in offices and suppressing much of what we are...they're behaving in the way they were evolved to behave: hunting and gathering in small family groups. That could lead to them having more fulfilling lives than most of us, potentially.
This man who got closer to having friendly relations with the Sentinelese is named Pandit. He calls them peace-loving (I think that's a major exaggeration. They've attacked boats that have gotten stranded on their island before). He mentions that they don't attack other islands. He's visited them in the 1990's. He'd pass out coconuts to them which he's said they liked a lot. Even he said he's been threatened by them before. He says that Chau could have saved himself if he'd backed off after the Sentinelese began to threaten him. Instead, Chau returned after they fired arrows at him, seemingly. Pandit just backed off when threatened, or when the Sentinelese became agitated and moved away, and so he maintained more or less peaceful relations. They never attempted to harm Pandit because of that.
I don't know how you'd begin a long term friendly relationship with people who so clearly don't want much outsider contact beyond gifting them the occasional food and gift and then leaving. Surrounding tribes were laid waste to by foreign diseases too. I'm sure Sentinelese lifestyle isn't perfect...but they have been watching each other's backs for...probably quite a long time. There is no way to provide them with outside information I'm aware of that's safe...and even once you do that...I'm thinking there's a pretty good chance they'll stay as territorial as ever.
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