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Old 11-30-2018, 03:12 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I wanna hear more about this!!...can you start a thread on this....and expound a bit more?
Or name a book or site that can be looked up if you're busy? Thanks, dear.
It is indeed interesting. I have looked at the Greek and i didn't read it that way myself, but as a Greek -speaker, Harry surely knows what he is talking about.

The context seems pretty clear, no matter what the actual reading is: "You people are a bad lot; you have bad origins and you do bad things." I imagine the early church might have decided to keep a bit quiet about text problems. It may have been difficult, theologically, but they fully agreed with the sentiments.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:24 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Yes, the above is your most frequent theme, however, I do not know what atheists you are referencing. I have not seen anyone in this forum who fits the description of "militant atheist." You and Ozzy have a lot of enemies, but I think most of them exist in your imaginations.
Yes. This is not new. The "Atheist professor" was a stock hate figure in earlier religious polemics. A strawman schoolteacher screaming in the face of the Christian schoolkids "Where is your god now?"

That's what we do ask, of course, every time something that any god worth a damn would prevent happens, but it's the way they presented the character was half of the argument.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-30-2018 at 03:34 PM..
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:46 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
If the universe operates according to the plans and desires of a loving God who includes birth defects into His plans, then we are going to need a new definition of "loving." On the other hand, if the universe operates according to somewhat arbitrary natural principles with NO intelligent purpose, then birth defects are merely a consequence of random chance and the imperfect nature of biology. This is not to mitigate the tragedy of birth defects, but biology is imperfect by nature. Failure is inconsequential as long as there are viable successes. Nature is NOT intelligent, but biology manages to produce viable organisms the vast majority of the time, so that life continues. Intelligent design should produce viable organisms EVERY TIME!

That's what the data tell us about the universe. Life succeeds and continues so long as viable organisms are produced the majority of the time. Non viable organisms are an inconsequential though statistically probable result which is the natural offshoot of non intelligent random chance.

Socialism is neither pro or anti-god. The communists made a decision to be anti-god, but that was a choice made by individuals who were in a position of instituting an authoritarian form of government. There is no prevailing opinion among atheists on establishing an authoritarian form of government. Atheists are united ONLY by the lack of a belief in God or gods.
yeah, the definition of god that some people use is wrong. I agree. But a loving god can produce a deformed child was my point.

"nature isn't intelligent". Not all of it isn't. The question is how much of if it is. I stay with 40AU's, anything past that we don't see enough.

I see no way for the universe to have anything less than we have. The universe is a data processor. we are a smaller subset of that processor. I feel whatever you classify humans as, you must, in part, classify the universe as. i see no way around that.

that doesn't mean it controls our everyday. I only talk about it in the same vain as your life does most certainly, design the red blood cell in you.

The data suggest that we are in homeostasis. Or at least trying to achieve it. that the each step in complexity was built from the step before it.


some, even most, atheist don't care about anti-religion. Some atheist do. some atheist do rally behind anti-religion. which is completely different than rallying behind over organised religion or religious people that do wrong.

some atheist want meetings, flags, and symbols. they are the ones that make atheism look religious. I am ok with making sure people get there rights. anti-religion is very dangerous.
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:53 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Yes, the above is your most frequent theme, however, I do not know what atheists you are referencing. I have not seen anyone in this forum who fits the description of "militant atheist." You and Ozzy have a lot of enemies, but I think most of them exist in your imaginations.
this is intellectually dishonest. but your post does prove the point.

repeated terms like delusional, stupid, need comfy blankets, don't accept reality, would you ignore it? would you care if I pointed out where atheist that claim "they will listen to any valid claim" when as a point of fact they won't?

You last sentence is meaningless and only used to make a less valid claim seem more real. but nice try with the ad homian. lmao.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:00 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes. This is not new. The "Atheist professor" was a stock hate figure in earlier religious polemics. A strawman schoolteacher screaming in the face of the Christian schoolkids "Where is your god now?"

That's what we do ask, of course, every time something that any god worth a damn would prevent happens, but it's the way they presented the character was half of the argument.
lamo trans. you where the one telling me not to talk about things that may be valid but it doesn't help atheism so don't talk about it. You were the one pushing to keep things quite so religious can't use it.

You were the one that told m "yeah, it might be true but its no practical value to me so why give religion anything to use." then you just posted recently that "the truth is the most important thing.'

Luckily for me, out in the real world, your sect of atheism is easy exposed as just another group of pissed off at the world people. Your sect will always be outnumbered by atheist that believe we are part of a larger more complex system. and with that claim comes some grown up consequences that you want to cover up.

I love how you play the victim, when as a point of fact, you are the perpetrator.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:28 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,778,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I wanna hear more about this!!...can you start a thread on this....and expound a bit more?
Or name a book or site that can be looked up if you're busy? Thanks, dear.
The early Gnostic Christians believed that the Demiurge was a lesser god who created the world. And that Jesus was pointing to the greater one.

To me there is symbolic truth in every major religion, otherwise it wouldn't have become a major one. I don't consider Gnosticism to be a major religion, but I definitely think that some of its ideas are parts of many faiths. And I also think that modern Christianity is a combination of both (1) orthodox Christian and (2) small-g Gnosticism. That kind of gnostic idea being that every individual has access to divine truth due to having that divine nature inside of him, and he doesn't need a Bible or any other authoritative source.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:32 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,778,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
thats the whole of my point in every post.

for what they knew, from dust to man, was amazing insight.

calling them delusional is flat stupid and wrong.

Focusing on the literal people is the real point. I don't know any rational believer that doesn't back off of the bible god when questioned with understanding. I haven't met one. the numbers leaving religion but believe in something prove my point.

Pointing fingers, jumping around screaming about how everything a rational believer says is "false" is just flat wrong, short sighted, and stupid. Any atheist doing this is a millitant atheist and just as dangerous as any fundy theist.
Stupid is the right word for it. Many of them seem to be just as unfamiliar with reading literature as the most conservative fundamentalist. The fundamentalists discourage the reading of literature because most of it doesn't support their religious ideas, but many atheists are just as unfamiliar with literature. And the worst part is that it is by choice. The result is that they have very limited understanding of literary works such as the Bible. They just don't know how to read literature because they take it so literally. It's sad and frustrating.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:35 PM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,778,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Nicely stated. I suppose it's like this: anyone who wants to see the Bible as metaphorical or symbolic, can have their fun. Anyone who wants to find lessons for life in it can do so - but when they try sell them to us, they will be subjected to the same consideration as any suggestions about how to live, wherever they come from. That they were taken from the Bible gets them no extra mileage. None. Atheists are not concerned with those who do this metaphorical stuff - until they start telling us that we are wrong for not doing it.

We are not wrong. We are right to do this until they can make a case why we should credit their exhortations. And antiquity, beauty of prose, social influence and being the basis of western culture - all means nothing other that just those things.

The only argument that cuts any ice is that it represents input from divine adviser or oracle. And that they have to prove. That the Bible contains so much that is wrong and false and pretty bad, really debunks the Bible as anything but the beliefs of, first Iron age Jews who thought the world was a few thousand years old and Greeks who hadn't got Eratothenes E- mail that the world was round.

Indeed the only reason they even concern us is because the put their support behind the Real problem. The ones who believe that it is a literally true record and want it to replace the history and science books. That makes them all a serious threat and danger, and makes them all fair game.
It's crazy that you would take a book of clearly symbolic literature and then state that it is something else. Do you realize how crazy that sounds when you do that?
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:55 PM
 
Location: minnesota
15,797 posts, read 6,223,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The early Gnostic Christians believed that the Demiurge was a lesser god who created the world. And that Jesus was pointing to the greater one.

To me there is symbolic truth in every major religion, otherwise it wouldn't have become a major one. I don't consider Gnosticism to be a major religion, but I definitely think that some of its ideas are parts of many faiths. And I also think that modern Christianity is a combination of both (1) orthodox Christian and (2) small-g Gnosticism. That kind of gnostic idea being that every individual has access to divine truth due to having that divine nature inside of him, and he doesn't need a Bible or any other authoritative source.
That reminded me of a Bruce Lee quote that might help illustrate why the contradictions and violence in the Bible doesn't dissuade many believers to it's validity. I'm going off my own experience when I would have considered myself an irreligious Christian so feel free to correct it as you see fit.

Quote:
“Its like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:58 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Stupid is the right word for it. Many of them seem to be just as unfamiliar with reading literature as the most conservative fundamentalist. The fundamentalists discourage the reading of literature because most of it doesn't support their religious ideas, but many atheists are just as unfamiliar with literature. And the worst part is that it is by choice. The result is that they have very limited understanding of literary works such as the Bible. They just don't know how to read literature because they take it so literally. It's sad and frustrating.
For someone who has had to disregard what reads as an account of actual events and try to maintain it's credibility as 'symbolic', you come off rather poorly in accusing others of - not just reading the stuff the way you do, but of not reading it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
It's crazy that you would take a book of clearly symbolic literature and then state that it is something else. Do you realize how crazy that sounds when you do that?
Go to those who believe that it is literally true and convince them that it is just Symbolic. If you can do that, then get back to me.
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