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I was going to post a summary of the point that Julian made, but then it occurred to me that i didn't know what the argument was.
It looks to me like a fairly familiar warning against harm caused to society by Secularism (if not atheism).
I don't buy the one about Stalin. We are not Stalin.
I don't buy the one about gender equality experiments and changes in women's fashions. The super - tattoo look is an extreme fashion but that is not in itself something that atheism has done. I get the point that Christian women will dress conservatively, but that's a question of fashion, not secularism.
The best point is perhaps the amount that Catholicism puts into charity. Well, I'd say that they are contributing something here. I suspect that there is missionary zeal behind it and I would much rather see Govt. doing this than Church, but they government does seem to see to see charity work as leaving them free to do other things with national money.
So secularism will leave the churches free to do their charity work, with or without missionizing as part of it. And we will go on spreading the godd News that there is no reason whatsoever to believe a word of what they teach.
To re use a well known expression. "We'll go on teaching them secularism and they can go on larnin' 'em religion."
yeah, anti-religious atheist are a dangerous lot. fundy-think type atheist are dangerous to people around them.
Either way, to me the whole idea is just absurd, but I am surrounded by weak people who need such beliefs in gods, saints, angels etc.
Still, I think religion is very overestimated, in reality it is just a layer of paint on the human foundation, which is basically the same across all cultures.
Either way, to me the whole idea is just absurd, but I am surrounded by weak people who need such beliefs in gods, saints, angels etc.
Still, I think religion is very overestimated, in reality it is just a layer of paint on the human foundation, which is basically the same across all cultures.
describing the evils of religion and social engineering are two different conversations.
anti-religious laws demonstrate a weakness, a sickness actually, that need to be avoided like a theist ruler.
"believing" isn't just for the weak. and you may not be the strongest because you don't believe in god.
I didn't say anything about laws, they would not work, anyway. People have to realize that what they believe in makes no sense. As long as they don't want to, they will stick to it, like with any other rituals and traditions.
I do think believing in gods, angels etc. is a sign of weakness in several ways.
it isn't a question of 'removing' religion, but of not letting it have political (really -that's what it is) power. If it can't propagandize kids at school, can't get into this or that Board or assembly, if it can't influence politics, it is going to lose power and the job will be done. There will still be the question of money. Religion can get millions from business and donation the way it can't here. But if irreligion is simply doing a lot of videos countering all the propaganda that religion makes (and they are making a heck of a lot just now), then the religious side will be just wasting their money on advertising that nobody takes seriously (1).
'Cultural' Christianity is neither here nor there. It is undeniable and not a problem. It is also irrelevant and no case for Christianity.
P.s Where's Julian gone? He was posting like nobody's business, then he vanished. Could it be that he is thinking it through? I really think that he and we goddless bastards could easily come to an Understanding, if not agreement.
(1) the most prolific and pernicious are the 'Living waters' vids showing atheists being converted or at least stumped by Ray Comfort. He is of course dead wrong, but you need video refutations to show how he's wrong. It is an Axiom (not one of Arq's Axioms) that, once you have had a magic trick explained, you won't be fooled by it again.
Yes, I think you have this right, Transponder.
I'll take Paula as an example. Paula and I were casual friends and she was the president (both good and bad) at our HOA. We didn't socialize together other than at an occasional community-wide event. I didn't know what her religion was, and didn't care to know. But when I started going to official HOA meetings, I sure learned what her religion was real fast. She would have to start out each meeting with a prayer that lasted several minutes long where we were expected to hold hands. What that had to do with the gardening committee or getting new roofing, I don't know. But we -- including Buddhists (like me), Jews, and residents with no religious affiliations -- had to sit through that crapola. It was an intrusion into our lives and made our lives uncomfortable. And that's just a little, local HOA elected government. Any praying that Paula does in her home, or when she's out hiking, or when she's in church...fine with me. But it should not intrude on the lives of the rest of us.
To the religious: Leave your religion out of my life, just as I leave my Buddhism out of your life. That's pretty simple.
I didn't say anything about laws, they would not work, anyway. People have to realize that what they believe in makes no sense. As long as they don't want to, they will stick to it, like with any other rituals and traditions.
I do think believing in gods, angels etc. is a sign of weakness in several ways.
Absolutely right. This was the axial or pivotal point of disagreement with our posting pal Corporate Cowboy (CC) who thought that countering unconstitutional action on the part of religion could be done without atheist preaching and hullaballoo through the law.
He has a big point there as it is the Law that has struck down case after case that Religion has tried to push through State and Church separation. But I think I am right in saying that you absolutely need to give irreligion a substantial power - base. Not only to allow law to do its' job but make some changes where the law can't yet interfere.
Do Buddhists believe in gods? I think experts don't really agree on that
Buddhists are free to contemplate that as they wish. I would say most do not. One somewhat more "official" position I have seen is that since we can't answer the question about "a god", we'll just set that aside and deal with life without it.
Do Buddhists believe in gods? I think experts don't really agree on that
Theravada Buddhist dogma neither believes nor disbelieves in gods. (In fact Buddhist stories regularly have the Hindu Gods appearing to assist Gotama in becoming The Buddha) because all creatures have to attain enlightenment/Buddhahood and thus escape the cycle of rebirth into oblivion (Nirvana (1). This applies to gods too. Buddhism is atheistic in that gods cannot help or 'save'. It is entirely down to a human's own efforts to achieve their own salvation. Mahayana Buddhism is a lot more theistic with lots of gods, Demi - gods, semi -demi -gods and hemi -semi -demigods all putting their salvation on the back burner to help all creatures to salvation. Praying to them in a totally religious way makes it as religious a religion as one could ask.
(1) n.b Nirvana is not Heaven but oblivion without rebirth into the suffering of existence. Asian Buddhists (in my experience ) don't aim at escaping rebirth but getting a next life but a lot better than this one. This depends on making merit - and that is easiest and best done by giving money to the church.
Trust me folks - even without regarding Karma as necessarily a cognisant and discerning intelligent entity (or distinguishing good and bad deeds isn't possible) and thus a quasi -god at least, Buddhism's a religion, allright.
I'll take Paula as an example. Paula and I were casual friends and she was the president (both good and bad) at our HOA. We didn't socialize together other than at an occasional community-wide event. I didn't know what her religion was, and didn't care to know. But when I started going to official HOA meetings, I sure learned what her religion was real fast. She would have to start out each meeting with a prayer that lasted several minutes long where we were expected to hold hands. What that had to do with the gardening committee or getting new roofing, I don't know. But we -- including Buddhists (like me), Jews, and residents with no religious affiliations -- had to sit through that crapola. It was an intrusion into our lives and made our lives uncomfortable. And that's just a little, local HOA elected government. Any praying that Paula does in her home, or when she's out hiking, or when she's in church...fine with me. But it should not intrude on the lives of the rest of us.
To the religious: Leave your religion out of my life, just as I leave my Buddhism out of your life. That's pretty simple.
Thank you. It is Not the case in the UK that such meetings, groups or committees (1) can expect anyone to open proceedings with a prayer. It Is probable that religion can trade on such residual 'Respect' that they could ask to start with a prayer and they'd be permitted to do it, but repeats would probably result in a quiet word that 'we really don't want to do that'. Such a person would probably be rather offended and protest that their religious freedom was being curtailed.
In the USA, you could probably bet on that.
(1) there were a few high -profile cases a year or so ago when Christian placements on local government requested that meetings begin with a prayer. That was slapped down immediately and protests that Christianity was being persecuted got little sympathy.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-28-2019 at 10:32 AM..
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) don't aim at escaping rebirth but getting a next life but a lot better than this one. This depends on making merit - and that is easiest and best done by giving money to the church.
