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Old 05-06-2019, 04:24 AM
 
7,572 posts, read 4,119,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Speaking only for myself, my hope is that atheism becoming more vocal may help stop what you did in sending them to Christian schools, for instance, and , instead, teaching them that they are not worthless "dirty rags" with inherited sins but, instead, worthwhile people who possess the ability to accomplish what they desire by their own efforts. Giving them a chance to start AT the starting line, not behind it.
Possibly, your kids won't discuss it because they didn't fall for it and just are trying to maintain a noncontroversial relationship with you
I can definitely see this for many Christian schools. The starting line is dependent on the parent's values and based on the response to your post, "the network" was one of the valuable pieces of these schools. That was not true for many of the other children who attended religious schools, like my mom.

Take away the network. Take away the academic education. What else does that school provide?


Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Let's put it this way.

Years ago when I was a principal, we had a head custodian who had been at the school for...well, way more than a decade, and way longer than I had been there. Nothing he did was ever really questioned by anyone. Finally he retired, and one of the candidates who came in reacted negatively to my statement that "Fred (the name is changed to protect the guilty) kept thing tip top here". As we toured the building, the new guy pointed out one deficiency after another that old Fred hadn't done very well with. And it was a good case of a new broom sweeping clean...literally in the case of a new head custodian.

And I'm reminded also about the dissension between Booker T Washington (the old guard in civil rights) and WEB DuBois (the newbie...at the time). And essentially it was a new perspective on an old issue.

We have talked here well before you -- a newbie to the forum -- came along about the "new atheism". It's not that there's anything new about the definition of atheism. But a person with an atheism background in the 1950s isn't going to look at atheism in the same way as someone coming up in the 2010s. Society, and particularly communication, has been revolutionized, and newbies are unlikely to be as restrained on the issue as someone out of the past.
This is an excellent way of explaining how society has changed, especially with the push to not keep feelings in. By allowing all feelings and their associated words, the playing field is starting to even out, where religion used to have the advantage by keeping most members and non-members quiet, when something unjust was occurring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I agree, the new atheist is aggressive and see religion as the biggest enemy of humanity. The old seasoned atheists of the past looked at the issue of atheism in a more academic manner.

The issue with new atheism is that it can become tribal once all members are permanently installed in the echo chamber. NEW atheism is also in danger of overlooking what has worked in the past.
Trying to control speech is the enemy.
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Old 05-06-2019, 04:28 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,081 posts, read 20,507,234 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Sure, that is possible.

Name one attribute that the old season atheists did not have.
A Voice. Added to which we may now have a clear objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I agree, the new atheist is aggressive and see religion as the biggest enemy of humanity. The old seasoned atheists of the past looked at the issue of atheism in a more academic manner.

The issue with new atheism is that it can become tribal once all members are permanently installed in the echo chamber. NEW atheism is also in danger of overlooking what has worked in the past.
That is certainly a danger that is well worth keeping in mind. We are not going to be fooled into thinking: "Ooohh- this could turn out so bad... we'd better stop doing it."

New Atheism just as with Old atheism has always been about reason and not Dogma. We keep that in mind, and we shouldn't fall into the traps that the religiously fearful, thinking of course of what their religion would do if it got control, would leap into yelling "Deo Vult!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Advancement is a series of successes and failures. It is a bit like the stock market and sometimes there is a major crash. The state of the world todays is the best we ever had in world history and it keeps getting better. However, there is always the chance of a crash by trying some crazy or even reviving what never worked in the past.

With few exceptions atheists never ran nations and the idea of an atheist world may not necessarily work. Religion as we mostly know today is based on a deity, but there is plenty of religion based on secular nonsense.
You certainly flag up the difficulty that that the religious or religious -headed have in understanding atheism, new atheism or the atheist mindset and agenda. They cannot help but think in terms of Atheism just being a religion of godlessness. They do not understand that it is just the 'today's world' with no religious influence in it. It isn't about trying some 'crazy' or something that 'never worked' in the past. It is about what is working now, but without any one religion dabbling in society, Law, politics,education or science.

I do hope that you can see the problem here - it is people who do not understand 'New' atheism trying to lecture New Atheists on new atheism.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-06-2019 at 04:42 AM..
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:49 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,279,269 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'll repeat my question, which you failed to answer. What strategies of oldie atheists "worked"? That was your claim, but of course, you responded with a post that didn't address that.
The old academic atheists were philosophers. They did not have an anti Christian agenda. My favorite one was Friedrich Nietzsche when he proclaimed "God is dead". Sadly NAZI Germany took the atheist philosophy of Nietzsche to justify Nazism. Nevertheless, that was not the fault of Nietzsche. He remains one of the most influential philosophers.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:56 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,279,269 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I can definitely see this for many Christian schools. The starting line is dependent on the parent's values and based on the response to your post, "the network" was one of the valuable pieces of these schools. That was not true for many of the other children who attended religious schools, like my mom.

Take away the network. Take away the academic education. What else does that school provide?
Believe it or not. Children seek guidance and order. They also value the sense of "I belong here", we have a good team. One of my daughter's best friend in high school was non-Catholic, and yet she also felt the same. I would say that networking and a solid education is more than enough. Look at the last two supreme court judges, both from Georgetown Prep. KIds in Catholic school are not exactly choir boys.


Quote:
This is an excellent way of explaining how society has changed, especially with the push to not keep feelings in. By allowing all feelings and their associated words, the playing field is starting to even out, where religion used to have the advantage by keeping most members and non-members quiet, when something unjust was occurring.
See above.
BY the eway there is no equality. What do you mean?



Quote:
Trying to control speech is the enemy.
That would be an issue for atheists on the left.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:34 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,279,269 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
A Voice. Added to which we may now have a clear objective.



That is certainly a danger that is well worth keeping in mind. We are not going to be fooled into thinking: "Ooohh- this could turn out so bad... we'd better stop doing it."

New Atheism just as with Old atheism has always been about reason and not Dogma. We keep that in mind, and we shouldn't fall into the traps that the religiously fearful, thinking of course of what their religion would do if it got control, would leap into yelling "Deo Vult!"
I am able to marry reason with religion as culture. I think that is the best of both worlds. My favorite MP in in your neck of the woods England is Jacob Rees-Mog. He believes in tradition and is very Catholic. At the same time he makes much more sense than many other atheist MPs. And lastly he would never imposed his values unto others.


Quote:
You certainly flag up the difficulty that that the religious or religious -headed have in understanding atheism, new atheism or the atheist mindset and agenda. They cannot help but think in terms of Atheism just being a religion of godlessness. They do not understand that it is just the 'today's world' with no religious influence in it. It isn't about trying some 'crazy' or something that 'never worked' in the past. It is about what is working now, but without any one religion dabbling in society, Law, politics,education or science.

I do hope that you can see the problem here - it is people who do not understand 'New' atheism trying to lecture New Atheists on new atheism.
Religion played a key role in human development. We evolved in small tribes where the common trait was sharing DNA. IN other words the tribe was a large family. In this context anyone that was not a member of the tribe was an outsider and not to be trusted. Religion created tribes that went beyond "sharing DNA" and that was a HUGE achievement. Atheism in itself is also tribal. And when members of different tribes see each other the amygdala starts to fire like crazy creating distrust and discomfort.
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,596 posts, read 4,880,510 times
Reputation: 2066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The old academic atheists were philosophers. They did not have an anti Christian agenda. My favorite one was Friedrich Nietzsche when he proclaimed "God is dead". Sadly NAZI Germany took the atheist philosophy of Nietzsche to justify Nazism. Nevertheless, that was not the fault of Nietzsche. He remains one of the most influential philosophers.
Do not forget the Nazis and that atheist, Martin Luther.
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Old 05-06-2019, 08:37 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,279,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Do not forget the Nazis and that atheist, Martin Luther.
Atheists are not to be blamed by the atrocities of c-word atheists. The damage was done in the name of c-word and not atheism. No problem.
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,596 posts, read 4,880,510 times
Reputation: 2066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Atheists are not to be blamed by the atrocities of c-word atheists. The damage was done in the name of c-word and not atheism. No problem.
For an alleged superior intellect, you do love your fallacies, Vic. This straw man, your Nietzsche cüm hoc ergo propter hoc. Or did you men Elisabeth Nietzsche?

You do know you had to swear an oath to the christian god for the military and civil servants?

Last edited by Harry Diogenes; 05-06-2019 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 05-06-2019, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,252 posts, read 23,873,057 times
Reputation: 32607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The old academic atheists were philosophers. They did not have an anti Christian agenda. My favorite one was Friedrich Nietzsche when he proclaimed "God is dead". Sadly NAZI Germany took the atheist philosophy of Nietzsche to justify Nazism. Nevertheless, that was not the fault of Nietzsche. He remains one of the most influential philosophers.
Just forget it. You either can't or won't answer the actual question.
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:04 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,279,269 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry diogenes View Post
and according to julian's definition, i am all levels at once. I must be a quantum atheist.
Ha, ha. Maybe you drift from a stable to an non-stable state.
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