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In the past, Islam was in division one of the league whilst Christianity was still playing on the village green. As I said, when Christians were living in mud huts and burning women as witches for as little as having a black cat or a wart on their nose, Muslims where living in opulent palaces with running water and formal gardens, reading books from extensive libraries and were at the forefront of scientific research. Not in the same league? Well you were right there...but not as you'd like to see it.
The bold is the relevant factor - In the PAST! The situation is reversed today and the facts on the ground TODAY are what we have to deal with. This is the problem with so many backward-looking people, they frustrate, inhibit, and encumber any attempts to move forward and correct the problems of TODAY!
The bold is the relevant factor - In the PAST! The situation is reversed today and the facts on the ground TODAY are what we have to deal with. This is the problem with so many backward-looking people, they frustrate, inhibit, and encumber any attempts to move forward and correct the problems of TODAY!
And they harshly judge ancient people with a 21st century mindset which is totally inappropriate.
I wonder how people can so easily make failed comparisons that are not even in the same category. The fanatic Muslims today pose a vastly greater threat to innocent people around the world than any fanatic Christians would. There is NO comparison.
Tell that to some of the natives in Latin and South America who were tortured and/or put to death during the conversion crusades of the early christian explorers.
Tell that to some of the natives in Latin and South America who were tortured and/or put to death during the conversion crusades of the early christian explorers.
mystic's post stated "today" and mystic is correct that there is far greater a threat today from militant Islam than there is from militant Christianity.
A thousand years ago, the Christians of that era were indeed a bloodthirsty lot, perhaps fairly comparable to modern Islamic ferocity, but not modern Christianity.
mystic's post stated "today" and mystic is correct that there is far greater a threat today from militant Islam than there is from militant Christianity.
A thousand years ago, the Christians of that era were indeed a bloodthirsty lot, perhaps fairly comparable to modern Islamic ferocity, but not modern Christianity.
Exactly!
This is not rocket science.
As I said before I suspect some forum members see Islam with googly eyes.
mystic's post stated "today" and mystic is correct that there is far greater a threat today from militant Islam than there is from militant Christianity.
A thousand years ago, the Christians of that era were indeed a bloodthirsty lot, perhaps fairly comparable to modern Islamic ferocity, but not modern Christianity.
Therein lies the rub, one used to be murderously violent and the other still is. But you know what they say about the sins of the Father right? I appreciated Mystic's post also.
mystic's post stated "today" and mystic is correct that there is far greater a threat today from militant Islam than there is from militant Christianity.
A thousand years ago, the Christians of that era were indeed a bloodthirsty lot, perhaps fairly comparable to modern Islamic ferocity, but not modern Christianity.
True. But I am not so quick to conveniently excuse past christian behavior, nor the pedophilic behavior in the clergy we see in one of the largest christian denominations in this era.
The Mayas are great. East Asians are awesome!
This is what Transponder said:
The response by Mircea:
Enuff said!
Mircea then. One. Hardly turning all the atheists here into apologists for Islam. Dare i suggest that the idea is that all our arguments amount to nothing because if we get our way, we will replace Christianity with the appalling Islam? it's an excuse not to support atheists because we will lead to Islam as we have the accusation that we will lead to Stalinism? otherwise i can't see why you are insisting on making us apologist to what is to most of us the religion we would be the last to want to embrace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I wonder how people can so easily make failed comparisons that are not even in the same category. The fanatic Muslims today pose a vastly greater threat to innocent people around the world than any fanatic Christians would. There is NO comparison.
I'm inclined to agree. but this is an argument that is to prone to become crafty misdirection. "Why are you pulling me over for drunk driving? You should be out catching a murderer!" (the other side of the coin is 'Look at the positives')
That there are worse problems does not justify ignoring serious problems, and Fundamentalist Christianity is a serious problem and a danger in the US today, and if that could be reduced to the level of impotence that Christianity has in Europe -so it's not impossible - I think we could start to deal with the problem of Islam, much of which is down to Fundamentalist Christianity in the US now seeing Islam as the Enemy to crusade against now that The Red scare is really no longer anything to be scared about.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-21-2019 at 06:20 PM..
And they harshly judge ancient people with a 21st century mindset which is totally inappropriate.
Not so. We judge people today with a 21st century mindset. We do try to understand the mindset of the ancients, but it isn't always easy. So you have a point there. The argument is really about the situation now, not back in the 7th, 14th or 17th century.
But if at any time we are discussing the actions or writings of the ancients, remind us that we have to try to understand their mindset and (echoes of CC ) we will ask you how we should do that. And at need we will ask you to consider the mindset of the ancients that you are talking about.
At the worst, we might just have to give up using the actions of the ancients in the argument.
We are willing to do that, and argue about the only mindset that we can understand - the 21st century on.
Or, if you are like me, ancient and beating off the angel of death with stout stick, the 20th c mindset, which at least i can remember.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
mystic's post stated "today" and mystic is correct that there is far greater a threat today from militant Islam than there is from militant Christianity.
A thousand years ago, the Christians of that era were indeed a bloodthirsty lot, perhaps fairly comparable to modern Islamic ferocity, but not modern Christianity.
I think we would all agree with that. But, if one is trumpeting the debt we owe to medieval Christianity (universities and....universities...but not the Crusades, oh no, we can't harshly judge those with a 21st c mindset) then we are going to point out the debt that science owes to the Islam of their golden era, medieval Baghdad. That we agree that a turn to fanaticism happened where science was considered the devil's work is ignored and we are represented as apologists for Islam. And one who speaks up for it (as it is today) is used to represent the entire spectrum of Forum atheists.
You don't see some bias -problem here? And not a bias against Islam, but a bias against atheism. Julian here is damn' near an atheist anyway and is plainly looking around for mucky accusations to daub atheism with so that he has an excuse for continuing to reject us.
We have see this so many times before - yes you are right, but we don't want to support you or join you in you campaign to roll back the influence and privilege and general credit that Christianity has in the US at least and that is what it's really all about and is not really about anything else.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-21-2019 at 06:22 PM..
Mircea then. One. Hardly turning all the atheists here into apologists for Islam. Dare i suggest that the idea is that all our arguments amount to nothing because if we get our way, we will replace Christianity with the appalling Islam? it's an excuse not to support atheists because we will lead to Islam as we have the accusation that we will lead to Stalinism? otherwise i can't see why you are insisting on making us apologist to what is to most of us the religion we would be the last to want to embrace.
I'm inclined to agree. but this is an argument that is to prone to become crafty misdirection. "They are you pulling me over for drunk driving? You should be out catching a murderer!"
That there are worse problems does not justify ignoring serious problems, and Fundamentalist Christianity is a serious problem and a danger in the US today, and if that could be reduced to the level of impotence that Christianity has in Europe -so it's not impossible - I think we could start to deal with the problem of Islam, much of which is down to Fundamentalist Christianity in the US now seeing Islam as the Enemy to crusade against now that The Red scare is really no longer anything to be scared about.
What Julian misses about Mircea's post is that Mircea is saying (I think) that if Islam had won out, it might not have gone backward to fanaticism, but become a more progressive version of Islam worthy of its past. You might have missed that as well.
I don't think Mircea was saying that he preferred the Islam as it is today over the Christianity as it is today at all.
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) we will ask you how we should do that. And at need we will ask you to consider the mindset of the ancients that you are talking about.
