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Close enough. I would argue that all philosophical positions in relation to religion encompass two axis, that of agnosticism:gnosticism, and that of atheism:theism. There is a sticky on this forum that goes into more detail.
For myself, I do not think that we are in a position to have firm knowledge of many things, therefore I am agnostic, as I admit to a uncertainty in almost any position I take. However, with what I do know, atheism, or the stance that I have not been convinced that there is a god because I have not seen sufficient evidence, accurately defines me.
I am going to skip responding to your points in regards to the post to Canary. I don't see that getting resolved here, and snipping at other posters tends to make threads die. Lets just agree to move on from this, shall we?
You are welcome. I know that many theists are suspicious of the motives for people adopting atheism, and I have had many conversations with people who questioned whether my decision was carefully and thoughtfully considered. Often theists claim that atheists simply want to sin, or deny god for one reason or another. I would appreciate it if you would accept that my decision was carefully considered, I truly do not believe in any god I have been presented with, and I am not doing it so that I can live a hedonistic lifestyle.
Let's have a discussion, and excuses me for using language loosely. Debates are annoying.
That being said, I don't mind explaining my reasons for breaking away from religion, as they are entirely defensible.
Sincere answer... Yes. Reasoned thought and some debate did lead my to change my belief from true believer to atheist originally, and I have sincerely entered into discussions in the subsequent decades with an open mind. Or, at least as open as can be, given 30 years of discussion on the topic and a complete failure of people to provide any evidence for the existence of god. I guess my cynicism based on experience tends to taint my conclusions, but for a strong enough proof, yes, I would change my belief.
How about you? Are you open enough to think your beliefs could be changed?
Your turn. I have asked you variations of this question twice before, and you have not even attempted to address it. Asking once again:
1. Does a god exist? How do we know that, and if the existence of god can be established, how do we know which god, and what its intent for humanity is?
Now that we have our own thread, how about answering my question about god’s existence?
I'd rather not start off 'defending' my belief in God. Let's just have a discussion. I can safely assume that nothing I could say would be sufficient, from your perspective, to justify belief. I make that assumption because you've already indicated that you've done your own research and you came to a contrary conclusion.
What are the chances I will have a satisfactory answer for you, seeing as it's been a question that's been debated throughout history? I can give you my own reasons but I don't want to get into a debate about it. It's fine with me if we have a difference of opinion. I have enough experience on religion forums to know that it's a very rare occurrence for someone to change their worldview as the result of a debate, so I have no expectations of that. I think forums are mostly a waste of time and it breeds negativity and hive-mind and people feeling freer to be less civil to each other than they'd be if they met in real life. I don't think anyone is going to mutter, from their death bed, "I wish I had spent more time staring at my screen." The internet is gamifying/amusing/distracting everyone and the result is not positive. Life zips along while we are all distracted. I guess that's OK as long a lot of people leave nice, heartfelt comments on my Facebook wall after I'm dead.
I kind of went on a ramble there. My short answer for why I believe in God is because I believe Jesus was who he claimed to be. There are many reasons that add up to my belief in God. Since I'm hesitant to engage in debate, I'll wait until I see how you react to what I've said so far.
[edited]
Last edited by Iwasmadenew; 07-13-2019 at 07:42 PM..
You say you left religion because you "knew too much."
What were your key reasons for leaving religion?
I'm also curious about what religion questions you couldn't get answers to?
Ok. My assumption when you made this post was that you thought you could answer questions, or you would be attempting to address my reasons for leaving religions. I guess that I was mistaken.
Using this as a jumping off point for this thread, I will elaborate a bit more.
I left religion because I was searching for truth, and I was unable to find any in religion. It became apparent to me that non-religious explanations were more likely to be true. With this being the case, following a religion seemed silly, so I became an atheist. Over time I have seen the harm that can be attributed to religion, and while I acknowledge that it can be a force for good, on balance it seems to me to be more detrimental than beneficial.
The questions that people were unable to answer are numerous, but the truly problematic ones in my opinion are the most fundamental. Among others:
Does god exist?
Which god?
Does morality exist independently of god, or is morality a result of god (The Euthyphro Dilemma)?
How does one resolve the problem of evil with a benevolent deity?
If that cannot be resolved, is it just to worship an evil deity?
Assuming the Christian doctrine of damnation to Hell is correct, is an eternal punishment for finite crimes just? If so, how?
Let me throw a different one at you. Why are you a Christian? What has convinced you, assuming you are convinced, that this is the correct view and worth following?
Now that we have our own thread, how about answering my question about god’s existence?
Each individual has and assesses their experiences in myriad ways involving education, circumstances, upbringing, and faith in the reliability of their perceptions. Absent an experience of God as I was for the first 30+ years of my life, there is nothing I can think of that would have caused me to believe in God. I suspect the same is true for you. The difference is that I did experience God in an unexpected, unmistakable, and utterly convincing way involving a visceral "knowing" that cannot be verbalized. But rather than solving the issue, it still left me with the same questions that you listed - "how do we know which god, and what its intent for humanity is?" So just the experiencing of God's existence is insufficient and I had to spend multiple decades answering the remaining questions to my satisfaction using science and the existing spiritual fossil record of speculations about God.
My short answer for why I believe in God is because I believe Jesus was who he claimed to be. ]
Given that your short answer is "I believe because I believe", it is understandable that you wish to avoid debate. The above isn't a reason, it is a redundancy. Would you be impressed if the counter argument was "I don't believe because I don't believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be.?"
C'mon, guts it up here, take a chance, test your faith. If it's strong, it will survive the crucible of this forum's heavyweights. And if not, you will wind up grateful that you have escaped from a false mentality.
Plenty of us here started as believers and none of us appears interested in going back now that we have unshackled ourselves from superstition. If you don't give both sides a try, you won't know what you might be missing.
Start by asking yourself....what are the real reasons I believe? Because your parents believed and told you it was true? Because in your community, non believers aren't as warmly welcomed? Because it represents an emotional comfort? Or is it because you have questioned your faith and found that it can withstand any logical or evidence based test for veracity? I'm betting it isn't that last thing because you have indicated your unwillingness to even talk about it with those who do not believe.
Two points being made for the belief- claim. 'visceral'. and 'I believe Jesus was ...'
Visceral is a feeling we get. The feeling is accepted. That it is 'God' is not. I think it probable that it a feeling the mind produces.
Whether Jesus claimed it or not, the claim is made. i don't accept it, because the claims in the gospels evolved to suit the Christians who wrote them.
That the believers won't accept that for a second is understood. Let's say in a 'discussion' rather than a 'debate' the purpose is not to convince the other side, but rather to see what case can be made/refuted by either side. So I say that Feelings we get can be misinterpreted and the gospels are not to trusted as telling us what's true. What's the case for the feelings being interpreted correctly and what's the reason why we should think the gospels tell us the truth about Jesus?
Oh..'Faith' is a lack of a case right from the start. it is the 'reason' put forward when believers don't have a better one.
Given that your short answer is "I believe because I believe", it is understandable that you wish to avoid debate. The above isn't a reason, it is a redundancy. Would you be impressed if the counter argument was "I don't believe because I don't believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be.?"
Iwasmadenew,
I don’t have much to add here, Grandstander has hit the bullseye. Your reasons for believing seem weak to me, and unless you can contribute to the conversation with something more than questions for me, this is likely to be a short thread.
You seem so confident in challenging people to defend their worldview, but so far I don’t see the substance to back up your challenges. You strike me as a person who has read something by Lee Strobel and think you are prepared for a real world conversation, but aren’t.
If course, he might request to have a discussion (not a debate..heavens, no ) with just one of us predatory Murmillions, just to avoid the accusation of 'ganging up'
Each individual has and assesses their experiences in myriad ways involving education, circumstances, upbringing, and faith in the reliability of their perceptions. Absent an experience of God as I was for the first 30+ years of my life, there is nothing I can think of that would have caused me to believe in God. I suspect the same is true for you. The difference is that I did experience God in an unexpected, unmistakable, and utterly convincing way involving a visceral "knowing" that cannot be verbalized. But rather than solving the issue, it still left me with the same questions that you listed - "how do we know which god, and what its intent for humanity is?" So just the experiencing of God's existence is insufficient and I had to spend multiple decades answering the remaining questions to my satisfaction using science and the existing spiritual fossil record of speculations about God.
I’m very interested to hear of your personal experience of God, if you are willing to tell me. If you already described it on this forum previously and you have a link to it, that would be fine, too. If it’s too personal and you’d rather not, no problem.
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) with just one of us predatory Murmillions, just to avoid the accusation of 'ganging up'
