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I disagree. I think a lot of atheists approach "discussion" with a "you're wrong and it's obvious, just agree with me" sort of tactic. I don't think that works very well in any situation. It will only cause the person you're trying to persuade to dig their heels in. Also I get the impression some atheists expect believers to just throw away everything they held dear on the spot. Which is just ridiculous.
I would say first that I think with a good approach you can make most people at least think hard about what they believe. Secondly, I think that even if there's no hope of ever convincing the person you're directly talking to, the discussion can benefit anyone else who may not be as stuck in their ways.
Here is where you are wrong. You are painting with way too broad a brush.
My atheism is my business, just like christianity is your business. I could give a rats a$$ what you believe, just don't try to shove your values down my throat and we'll get along fine. Don't legislate or advocate for the removal of my right to choose the appropriate course of action for me and mine.
Case in point, in the 70's, my kids were made to stand outside their grade school classroom during bible study, because we did not agree with the illegal teaching of the bible in public school. Clearly illegal, clearly wrong, but they did it anyway, not only flaunting the law, but trampling the rights of "me and mine".
Here is where you are wrong. You are painting with way too broad a brush.
My atheism is my business, just like christianity is your business. I could give a rats a$$ what you believe, just don't try to shove your values down my throat and we'll get along fine. Don't legislate or advocate for the removal of my right to choose the appropriate course of action for me and mine.
Case in point, in the 70's, my kids were made to stand outside their grade school classroom during bible study, because we did not agree with the illegal teaching of the bible in public school. Clearly illegal, clearly wrong, but they did it anyway, not only flaunting the law, but trampling the rights of "me and mine".
Regards
Gemstone1
This is political. This forum is not about politics its about belief and the evidence for the belief.
Here is the problem with you position. And I am just using your words so please forgive me. If you can take it, I will be impressed. I don't give a rats ass about how pissed you are at people. I as an atheist am only interested in looking at beliefs and see how they match what science data they give us. I am interested in a religion/spirituality forum to talk about beliefs, not politics.
Many atheist are mixing in activism into this forum about beliefs. They are incorrectly deciding the weights we are are assigning to observation based on activism when describing claims that match science and those that don't.
In a religion and spirituality forum, where we are talking about beliefs and the reliability of beliefs. Your activism is basically how you feel about religion is not the determining factor on of there is or is not a god. Its not only is not a factor, it actually gets in the way of describing what beliefs are more reliable than other beliefs.
You being pee-ed at religion really shouldn't be in this forum as much as it should be in some other type of forum.
Kind regards
Arach.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 12-24-2020 at 06:00 AM..
This is political. This forum is not about politics its about belief and the evidence for the belief.
Here is the problem with you position. And I am just using your words so please forgive me. If you can take it, I will be impressed. I don't give a rats ass about how pissed you are at people. I as an atheist am only interested in looking at beliefs and see how they match what science data they give us. I am interested in a religion/spirituality forum to talk about beliefs, not politics.
Many atheist are mixing in activism into this forum about beliefs. They are incorrectly deciding the weights we are are assigning to observation based on activism when describing claims that match science and those that don't.
In a religion and spirituality forum, where we are talking about beliefs and the reliability of beliefs. Your activism is basically how you feel about religion is not the determining factor on of there is or is not a god. Its not only is not a factor, it actually gets in the way of describing what beliefs are more reliable than other beliefs.
You being pee-ed at religion really shouldn't be in this forum as much as it should be in some other type of forum.
Kind regards
Arach.
Sorry, I don't see "political" anywhere in my post...what I do see is a difference of opinion.
And, I'm not P'd at religion, to each his own, but I have no use for it.
We’ve evolved to believe things like that. We can make up our own ideas about meaning but there is no actual meaning to our lives. We’ve won the cosmic lottery and are fortunate to get the opportunity to consciously experience our universe, but what difference does any of it make in the end?
We have the ability to make meanings to our lives. It's about trying to make the World better for our friends and family, for our environment and for people's we do not even know. All of that makes us better person, which we selfishly do just for our own selfish reasons of also making the World better for others. We have no obligations to do moral things for brownie points in some promised afterlife. But we do have moral obligations in our one life we do know about.
In the end we can look back at our lives and feel comfortable about them. In your World you are rewarded for believing in the correct religion and punished for being of the wrong one. Your meaning is smugness of thinking you have the correct one. Napi will be a big surprise in your afterlife when you discover you guess wrong. ☺
Here is where you are wrong. You are painting with way too broad a brush.
My atheism is my business, just like christianity is your business. I could give a rats a$$ what you believe, just don't try to shove your values down my throat and we'll get along fine. Don't legislate or advocate for the removal of my right to choose the appropriate course of action for me and mine.
Case in point, in the 70's, my kids were made to stand outside their grade school classroom during bible study, because we did not agree with the illegal teaching of the bible in public school. Clearly illegal, clearly wrong, but they did it anyway, not only flaunting the law, but trampling the rights of "me and mine".
Religious beliefs are held emotionally. No amount of discussion will change that.
I think all beliefs are ultimately underwritten by emotion. It's a miscalculation to think otherwise.
My experience, a lot of atheism is underwritten by an emotional resentment of religion.. which is fair enough. But it's hypocritical when atheists pretend to hold some kind of (exclusive) logical high ground over people who believe in God. Discussion can change everything in life, but it has to come from mutual respect & recognition that we are all emotionally motivated. peace
I think all beliefs are ultimately underwritten by emotion. It's a miscalculation to think otherwise.
My experience, a lot of atheism is underwritten by an emotional resentment of religion.. which is fair enough. But it's hypocritical when atheists pretend to hold some kind of (exclusive) logical high ground over people who believe in God. Discussion can change everything in life, but it has to come from mutual respect & recognition that we are all emotionally motivated. peace
Jews, Muslims and Christians proclaim the truth of, for example, Joshua causing the rotation of the Earth to stop for a full day (Joshua 10:12-13), or a man riding around in the belly of a large fish for several days las if in some great sea going taxi (Book of Jonah). Muslims proclaim the truth of Muhammad tearing the moon into two halves, and then restoring it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon), or Muhammad riding a flying steed named Al-Buraq up to heaven to have a face-to-face meeting with God (Quran, Chapter 53 [An-Najm)] verses 13–18). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_a...ern_observance
Christians proclaim such truths as hordes of dead people coming up out of their graves and wandering the streets of Jerusalem (Matt.27:52-53), and that the corpse of Jesus returned to life and subsequently flew off into the sky and disappeared into the clouds.
So... it's not exactly "hypocritical" of atheists if they appear to be taking the logical high ground over individuals who believe and proclaim these sorts of claims to be true.
Atheists have had the high ground handed to them on a silver platter.
We have the ability to make meanings to our lives. It's about trying to make the World better for our friends and family, for our environment and for people's we do not even know. All of that makes us better person, which we selfishly do just for our own selfish reasons of also making the World better for others. We have no obligations to do moral things for brownie points in some promised afterlife. But we do have moral obligations in our one life we do know about.
I believe that is religion based on a non-deity. It sounds a lot like an attenuated fire and brimstone type sermon. Nothing wrong with that as long as you do not try to persecute, discriminate, or oppress others.
Ayn Rand said that form of morality and altruism is OK if that is what you want to do. However, the need of others should not be a mortgage for life on those that take care of themselves.
Quote:
In the end we can look back at our lives and feel comfortable about them. In your World you are rewarded for believing in the correct religion and punished for being of the wrong one. Your meaning is smugness of thinking you have the correct one. Napi will be a big surprise in your afterlife when you discover you guess wrong. ☺
All you are saying is: "My religion is better than yours".
Atheism is not a religion and there is no obligation to be highly moral.
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