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I'm convinced, not just by Christian doctrine but by extremely extensive studies (and a fair number of experiences) with the paranormal, that deceptive spirits exist and do influence humans. Christianity recognizes this in the biblical admonition to "test the spirits." I thus am highly skeptical of claims of godly experiences outside the Christian context. There has been a mini-explosion of Muslims converting to Christianity after what they understood as mystical experiences of Jesus, and that is certainly possible.
These debates wouldn't go on and on if atheists weren't so hellbent on insisting that Christian belief is silly and couldn't possibly be held by any thoroughly sane, highly rational, critical-thinking person who has sincerely considered and compared the evidence, inferences and arguments. This insistence itself is self-evidently (but also demonstrably) silly and only makes the atheists themselves look silly. I know of no Christian counterpart, no Christian insistence that all atheistic, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu belief is silly and couldn't possibly be held by any thoroughly sane, highly rational, critical-thinking person who has sincerely considered and compared the evidence, inferences and arguments.
This is funny. These paragraphs are actually consecutive in the original. I have not snipped anything out in between. In the first the poster posits that all religious experiences outside the Christian framework are false and probably demonic. In the second paragraph the poster complains that Christians get mistreated here for expressing their views, ( such as everything but Christianity is demonic) , and claims that he knows of no Christian bashing other faiths even as he is typing a post proclaiming all god experiences outside of Christianity as likely demonic.
This is funny. These paragraphs are actually consecutive in the original. I have not snipped anything out in between. In the first the poster posits that all religious experiences outside the Christian framework are false and probably demonic. In the second paragraph the poster complains that Christians get mistreated here for expressing their views, ( such as everything but Christianity is demonic) , and claims that he knows of no Christian bashing other faiths even as he is typing a post proclaiming all god experiences outside of Christianity as likely demonic.
the better analogy is that we do not know the answer. We came downstairs and the toys were there and now we have to decide how they got there.
The we look at all the beliefs. And see what ones make sense. And see where this "lack of belief" of yours stands when we are looking around and comparing notes.
You love playing the "humility" card, don't you? Intellectually, I have no reason to be humble. I have an IQ in the 99.7th percentile and am highly educated in philosophy, theology and argumentation. Any humility in regard to my intellect and communication abilities would be entirely false humility. I am indeed humble in areas where I should be humble, and especially those relevant to my Christian walk. I don't see that I have "declared myself the winner" anywhere - I am simply tweaking those who make fools of themselves (like you) by suggesting my arguments are weak or flawed because they are intellectually incapable of dealing with the substance. I've been doing this for many, many years, pal - I don't make weak or flawed arguments, at least not very often.
Oh, good grief! Now we've got two people claiming to by the smartest guy in the room. Are you now going to tell us about your degrees and professorship? Most people don't care. They care what you say. They care how you treat people. They care how you show your humanity.
Oh, good grief! Now we've got two peopleclaiming to by the smartest guy in the room. Are you now going to tell us about your degrees and professorship? Most people don't care. They care what you say. They care how you treat people. They care how you show your humanity.
exactly. IQ does not matter, and is irrelevant with regards to a person's path of religion and spirituality.
that's why it is hilarious every time phrases like "atheist savant" are used.
same for those threads and posts of atheists boasting preening high intelligence. irrelevant.
too funny!
the bold above nicely highlights the core and crux of what IS important: what a person says, how a person treats people, how a person shows their humanity.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-18-2021 at 07:42 AM..
Well, let's see. You start a thread saying the Santa analogy is old, tired and not very apt and you wonder if there is anything better. When a highly intelligent and articulate believer kicks the Santa analogy and its defenders up one side and down the other, suddenly you don't think it's so bad. Par for the course in Atheist World, eh?
Of course, much religious affiliation is highly influenced by nurture and culture. Some people affiliate primarily for social, cultural and economic reasons unrelated to truth. So what? This really doesn't tell us anything about the strength of the foundation for the religion. If 100,000,000 sane and intelligent people, including philosophers, scientists, academics and professionals, have arrived at Christian beliefs after serious consideration of the evidence, inferences and arguments on both sides, it's irrelevant if 900,000,000 others hold Christian beliefs without much thought or primarily for social, cultural or economic reasons.
The people here want to believe that it's the lowest stratum of belief that determines the strength of the Christian claims. No, it's the highest stratum, which is why I keep referencing philosophers, scientists, academics and others who are intelligent, educated and capable of evaluating truth claims. (I am not demeaning the humble folks who simply believe. The Christian message is primarily directed to the heart, and a simple, humble heart is the one most likely to hear and respond to God's call. But these folks are not useful in countering atheist claims that believing in God is like believing in Santa.)
I do include Jews, Muslims, Hindus, et al., in my billions of sane and intelligent believers. All of them have found the evidence, inferences and arguments sufficient to cross the threshold into theistic belief. For this reason, they provide the most fertile soil for the Christian message. Even if they remain in their present religions, they help demonstrate that atheist claims about the silliness of religion are nonsense. Exactly the same logic applies: If 100,000,000 sane and intelligent people, including philosophers, scientists, academics and professionals, have arrived at Muslim beliefs after serious consideration of the evidence, inferences and arguments on both sides, it's irrelevant if 900,000,000 others hold Muslim beliefs without much thought or primarily for social, cultural or economic reasons.
You keep asserting this but never provide evidence these intelligent people have considered the evidence for their beliefs.
You love playing the "humility" card, don't you? Intellectually, I have no reason to be humble. I have an IQ in the 99.7th percentile and am highly educated in philosophy, theology and argumentation. Any humility in regard to my intellect and communication abilities would be entirely false humility. I am indeed humble in areas where I should be humble, and especially those relevant to my Christian walk. I don't see that I have "declared myself the winner" anywhere - I am simply tweaking those who make fools of themselves (like you) by suggesting my arguments are weak or flawed because they are intellectually incapable of dealing with the substance. I've been doing this for many, many years, pal - I don't make weak or flawed arguments, at least not very often.
I have seen you make one rational post. The rest were your usual fallacies.
I might add this: Precisely what is being suggested about religious belief is equally true of atheistic belief. I lived through a period, unlikely as it may seem now, when Christianity was the hip thing. Celebrities who probably couldn't name the four gospels were suddenly wearing crosses and flaunting their Christianity.
Now, the pendulum has swung. Consistent with what I believe to be a descent into end-times depravity, atheism and Christian-bashing are suddenly hip. Atheism fits nicely into the woke narrative, whereas traditional Christianity is distinctly unwoke and proud of it. Richard Dawkins and his fellow New Atheists have birthed a veritable flood of pseudo-atheists whose actual knowledge of atheism doesn't extend beyond YouTube and whose pseudo-atheism is almost entirely a cultural/social/economic one.
This reality simply underscores my point that things like the Santa analogy must be examined not at the lowest intellectual level of belief (or nonbelief) but at the highest. At the highest level of Christian belief, the best evidence, inferences and arguments on all sides have been examined and the individual has come down on the side of Christianity. Ditto at the highest level of atheistic belief. Ditto at the highest level of Hindu belief.
When this is done, the Santa analogy goes poof. It's valid only if uses the most mindless or non-truth-driven sort of religious belief for purposes of comparison - but then it's equally valid if one uses the most mindless or non-truth-driven sort of atheistic belief for purposes of comparison.
One beauty of Christianity is that it is able to speak to people of all socio-economic circumstances and intellectual levels. God can and does call anyone. The call may come, and the heart may be convicted, in an entirely unexpected moment - or this may occur only at the finish of a long and diligent quest. Many, many of those Christians whom you folks think are no more than cultural Christians have in fact experienced God in a direct way that requires no further thought or analysis.
Lol, no. Atheists just became vocal when theists tarted flying planes into buildings. Pretending atheism is hip is just your usual way to avoid making any arguments, because you know they are flawed and will be refuted.
Can you read? I specifically said the link was simply the first Google result that popped up. Do some minimal research and you'll discover that Harris is widely regarded as one of the weaker New Atheist thinkers.
Instead of your usual claims, you could demonstrate where is arguments fail instead of just asserting this.
i still can't keep a straight face every time the phrase "atheist savant" is used. too funny! because just look how atheists react and respond in this thread for instance to the notion of a "theist savant."
because if a person actually wants to demonstrate being logical and rational (versus merely strutting, preening, and boasting about being logical and rational) then they need to apply the same standard, and not a double standard. if the notion of atheist savants is entertained (and it is very entertaining), then that recognizes theist savants. if degrees and intelligence are set aside as irrelevant to discussions of religion and spirituality (see post #54 below, which i heartily agree with) then that applies to atheism as well.
if a person engages in a double standard, and does not apply the same standard, then they are demonstrating that they are not logical and not rational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
Oh, good grief! Now we've got two people claiming to by the smartest guy in the room. Are you now going to tell us about your degrees and professorship? Most people don't care. They care what you say. They care how you treat people. They care how you show your humanity.
if atheist savants are exalted and glorified and held in high regard, then so too are theist savants.
if theist savants are ridiculed and belittled as irrelevant, then so too are atheist savants.
if atheists claim that a brilliant theist is "not really a believer" or is "compartmentalizing" or "just going along with society" or "hasn't really thought deeply about it"----------> then that applies to the brilliant atheist, "not really an atheist" just "compartmentalizing" "hasn't really thought deeply about it"
i am pointing out the double standard; and how use of a double standard demonstrates lack of logic and lack of rational thinking.
the post above by mensaguy is brilliant. i appreciate his expressing this in such a clear, succinct voice.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-18-2021 at 07:58 AM..
Oh, good grief! Now we've got two people claiming to by the smartest guy in the room. Are you now going to tell us about your degrees and professorship? Most people don't care. They care what you say. They care how you treat people. They care how you show your humanity.
I learned a new way to explain what its about. But your post clearly demonstrates my serous disconnect.
How do we determine reliability of claim? Basically, what is this "We need proof" or "what is your proof" or is "you were nice so your belief is ok" the best we have?
You are now saying its about ... Phet and badland say the same thing.
Most people don't care about training.
They care what you say.
They care how you treat people.
They care how you show your humanity.
Then there is the other type of atheist.
We really ask you not to believe us. Rather we are asking do you think the claim is consistent with what we see. You don't have to believe us. In fact, it doesn't matter.
So when I see your standard to compare, the post above, to others, I seriously doubt your method is consistent and reliable with what we see. It more about how you feel the person spoke to you and what you want to be real.
Please, if i am misunderstanding you or quote mining let me know where.
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