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There are a lot of Christians who really think that if you just tried harder (in your own strength without really having a living faith from Jesus Christ being revealed within you...).... that you could become a believer just like them.
They think it's all about "free will" and the only reason you're not a Christian is because you haven't so chosen... NOT because you just simply don't believe it cause it hasn't been spiritually revealed to you that it's true.
What do YOU say?? Did you have the same revelation as Christians?? If God totally revealed Himself to you as God and touched your heart and caused you to believe - AND love Him believing that Jesus died for your sins - would you choose Christ??
Do you have power to believe you're just not exercising cause you just don't want to?? Or is believing beyond your human capacity and offensive to you??
What's your thoughts about it?? If you really believed with a heart of affection for Jesus as Savior... wouldn't you choose to be a Christian??
Amen, Haaziq. You don't have evidence that CONVINCES you TO believe... and that's why you don't believe. Makes sense to me... and I think Christians shouldn't judge you for the fact that NO EVIDENCE has been given to you whereby you CAN believe.
They should not judge you, imo... like you really DO believe... and are just being stubborn in not admitting it. No, I think you're telling the truth in your personal testimony that you CANNOT believe it cause it has NOT been proven to you. (ie. revealed or whatever term a person wants to use).
You can't see it.... so you don't believe it... and that's the way it is... as I see it... and no one has the right to judge you for it, imo.
Grace and peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq
Most atheists were raised in religious families. I was myself.
It has nothing to do with not trying to believe in something. It's about a lack of evidence. There are even Christians who will admit that.
I'm not breaking down your post to try and "counter-point" everything you asked, but merely to address all your questions. So, don't take it as an argument but a response, ok?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grace_explosion
There are a lot of Christians who really think that if you just tried harder (in your own strength without really having a living faith from Jesus Christ being revealed within you...).... that you could become a believer just like them.
I think that the human mind can force itself to believe in anything if it wants to. However, for me, it's about being intellectually honest with myself. I have no doubt that I could become a "believer" like all of the rest, but I don't think I'd be happy, and I'm pretty certain I wouldn't REALLY believe. I could certainly put on the facade of believing. I could go to church every Sunday, say I worship Jesus, and preach to the masses, and I imagine I'd be quite good at it. However, I don't think I'd be happy because I wouldn't TRULY believe it. The evidence is just not there for me and I think that in the end I would feel untrue to myself living a life of societal pressure rather than that of intellectual honesty.
In the end, what's the difference between an Atheist who says he believes and an Atheist who says he doesn't believe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grace_explosion
They think it's all about "free will" and the only reason you're not a Christian is because you haven't so chosen... NOT because you just simply don't believe it cause it hasn't been spiritually revealed to you that it's true.
That's kind of a catch-all cop-out in my opinion. I'm just an Atheist because I haven't been "touched" by the hand of God yet? I find that to be a pretty shallow argument in my opinion. I'm not calling YOU shallow, but those who wish to bring this sort of thing up are pretty callous themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grace_explosion
What do YOU say?? Did you have the same revelation as Christians?? If God totally revealed Himself to you as God and touched your heart and caused you to believe - AND love Him believing that Jesus died for your sins - would you choose Christ??
If I had a "spiritual" encounter of some sort I would not be so ignorant as to disbelieve it however I would question what particular deity caused it. If I had a spiritual encounter and the guy said "Troop, this is Jesus, you will believe in me or I am going to send you to the lake of fire" than that's a bit of a no-brainer. On the other hand, I fail to see why a spiritual encounter automatically defaults to that of the Christian God. Why WOULDN'T or COULDN'T it be Allah? How would I know? Unless, of course, spiritual encounters automatically default to the religion dominant within society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grace_explosion
Do you have power to believe you're just not exercising cause you just don't want to?? Or is believing beyond your human capacity and offensive to you??
It's not offensive to me. I can't say I disbelieve because I don't want to either. I simply disbelieve because I find the evidence lacking to support the notion of a deity much less a specific deity. I'm a little pickier than that. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grace_explosion
What's your thoughts about it?? If you really believed with a heart of affection for Jesus as Savior... wouldn't you choose to be a Christian??
I'm sure if I believed with a heart of affection for Jesus as Savior that I'd be a Christian. That sort of goes hand in hand, doesn't it? But, I'm not going to believe just because it's the "in" thing to do or because I feel pressure in doing so. I need evidence, and no, simply reading the Bible is not evidence for me. I need truly unfathomable, with no other possible scenario, evidence that suggests Jesus is real and so far I haven't heard anything to suggest that he's anything but perhaps a character in a story who may or may not have actually lived. That's where I stand with Jesus.
We don't "choose" to be Christians for many of the same reasons Christians don't choose to be Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, flying spaghetti worshipers, etc. Ask yourself why you don't choose to be Muslim or a follower of any other religion. The difference between an atheist and a Christian is that an atheist has just one more religion which he doesn't believe in.
*grace_explosion* is a Christian today most likely because that is how he/she was socialized. In other words, it is most likely that he/she hasn't invested the time to gain knowledge of atheism and the major religions to have made an informed choice about his/her own personal faith. He/she would have to explain why that is *not* the case for any nonbeliever to take his/her profession of faith seriously.
A sincere faith is not necessarily a truth-based faith.
Last edited by ParkTwain; 05-13-2008 at 12:55 PM..
I was 3 years old. Someone read me the story of Solomon as a toddler. Rock solid faith beyond human ability rocked into my spirit. I believed without question that God gives wisdom to those who ask and I believed with all my heart. As soon as I got alone, I lifted my eyes to Heaven and said with full assurance of faith, "God give me wisdom like you gave Solomon!"
Immediately, there was this spiritual explosion of grace. I was "in the Spirit" in Heaven in a flash of glory. Like with the sky as a backdrop... it was as if the story of creation was played like a "video" (but it was spiritual somehow) and I was shown creation, the fall of man, and redemption.
Then Jesus Christ in a figure of Divine Love and Glory appeared before me. My heart was touched by His Love... and I loved Him. Then there was another grace explosion.
Out of His Heart came a fireball of Divine Love and Glory that HIT my heart, formed a fireball of Divine Love and Glory within my heart that stayed... yet exploded back toward His heart at the same time in the corresponding fireball of Divine Love and Glory (the Holy Spirit).
I received full revelation of Jesus Christ as God. I received full spiritual revelation of God's grace in Divine Love & Glory.
Am I "better" than anyone else?? No. Have they received that level grace to have absolutely ZERO room for doubt?? No.
Will God send them to hell for eternity because He revealed Himself to me so fully - and has not to them.
That wouldn't be fair, now, crowd - would it??? NO.
They'll get their revelation someday... IF our revelation is true. (Yes, I believe it with all my heart - but out of respect for others... I'm just saying IF I got that revelation - and it's real and true - it just goes to show you... you will too. Cause it was 100% by grace and NOTHING of myself whatsoever.)
That's my testimony. I've seen Jesus face to face in full revelation. And that's how I was born of the Holy Spirit - straight from Heaven "in the Spirit" at a 100% level spiritually.
How dare anyone tell anyone that they oughtta just "try harder". (I'm talking to the Christians.)
Do you know HOW HARD... I tried??? I was COMPLETELY CARRIED BY GRACE - 100% GOD. It was 0%... me... or my OWN effort. It was 100% GOD revealing Jesus to me.
It was grace. How dare any Christian judge an unbeliever... when they haven't had... and equal opportunity. They'll see Jesus fully in Heaven one day - just like I did already. That's what I believe. And they'll believe...
IF we do... and it's true (I believe with all in me it is - I'm just being respectful of unbelievers and atheists)... THEN it's just as true for them too and they too will be brought to the same faith we were the same way: by grace through faith... someday. God loves everyone... just the same.
That's my pov for whatever it's worth.
Grace and peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain
*grace_explosion* is a Christian today most likely because that is how he/she was socialized. In other words, it is most likely that he/she hasn't invested the time to gain knowledge of atheism and the major religions to have made an informed choice about his/her own personal faith. He/she would have to explain why that is *not* the case for any nonbeliever to take his/her profession of faith seriously.
A sincere faith is not necessarily a truth-based faith.
Amen to the atheist!!! (from a Christian hee hee).
We CHOOSE according to what we BELIEVE. Period.
Listen to these people testify. They know what they are talking about. It's their testimony.
It's by GRACE we believe what we believe.. or we'd all choose the same way.
Obviously.... it seems to me. My pov for what it's worth.
Grace and peace,
LeeLee (Laura LeeLee - I'm a sis. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwmn
We don't "choose" to be Christians for many of the same reasons Christians don't choose to be Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, flying spaghetti worshipers, etc. Ask yourself why you don't choose to be Muslim or a follower of any other religion. The difference between an atheist and a Christian is that an atheist has just one more religion which he doesn't believe in.
I was 3 years old. Someone read me the story of Solomon as a toddler. Rock solid faith beyond human ability rocked into my spirit. I believed without question that God gives wisdom to those who ask and I believed with all my heart. As soon as I got alone, I lifted my eyes to Heaven and said with full assurance of faith, "God give me wisdom like you gave Solomon!"
Immediately, there was this spiritual explosion of grace. I was "in the Spirit" in Heaven in a flash of glory. Like with the sky as a backdrop... it was as if the story of creation was played like a "video" (but it was spiritual somehow) and I was shown creation, the fall of man, and redemption.
Then Jesus Christ in a figure of Divine Love and Glory appeared before me. My heart was touched by His Love... and I loved Him. Then there was another grace explosion.
Out of His Heart came a fireball of Divine Love and Glory that HIT my heart, formed a fireball of Divine Love and Glory within my heart that stayed... yet exploded back toward His heart at the same time in the corresponding fireball of Divine Love and Glory (the Holy Spirit).
I received full revelation of Jesus Christ as God. I received full spiritual revelation of God's grace in Divine Love & Glory.
Am I "better" than anyone else?? No. Have they received that level grace to have absolutely ZERO room for doubt?? No.
Will God send them to hell for eternity because He revealed Himself to me so fully - and has not to them.
That wouldn't be fair, now, crowd - would it??? NO.
They'll get their revelation someday... IF our revelation is true. (Yes, I believe it with all my heart - but out of respect for others... I'm just saying IF I got that revelation - and it's real and true - it just goes to show you... you will too. Cause it was 100% by grace and NOTHING of myself whatsoever.)
That's my testimony. I've seen Jesus face to face in full revelation. And that's how I was born of the Holy Spirit - straight from Heaven "in the Spirit" at a 100% level spiritually.
How dare anyone tell anyone that they oughtta just "try harder". (I'm talking to the Christians.)
Do you know HOW HARD... I tried??? I was COMPLETELY CARRIED BY GRACE - 100% GOD. It was 0%... me... or my OWN effort. It was 100% GOD revealing Jesus to me.
It was grace. How dare any Christian judge an unbeliever... when they haven't had... and equal opportunity. They'll see Jesus fully in Heaven one day - just like I did already. That's what I believe. And they'll believe...
IF we do... and it's true (I believe with all in me it is - I'm just being respectful of unbelievers and atheists)... THEN it's just as true for them too and they too will be brought to the same faith we were the same way: by grace through faith... someday. God loves everyone... just the same.
That's my pov for whatever it's worth.
Grace and peace.
Now see, my experience was the exact opposite of yours. I remember sitting in church when I was about 7-9 years old, and thinking "whoa, that doesn't sound right! That sounds like someone is trying to sell me something....theres no such thing as a free lunch".....and that is the thought that has struck with me all these years later.
I am not going to presume to know what it feels like to obviously very sincere people when they talk about having Jesus intimately involved in their lives. I just don't believe it.
I was raised Catholic and currently don't follow any one religious faith. I do believe in something divine, and I'd like to spend the rest of my life learning and questioning and observing and loving all that we've been given.
My atheist fiance explained his atheism to me like this (and it made alot of sense to me - maybe not for others): following a religion requires faith - some people have that faith, others don't. Can you "get" faith? Sure. I don't know that he'd call it a choice to believe or not believe. We'll discuss that tonight, I think.
Interesting thread!! Thanks!!
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