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The state isn't trying to interfere with your parental rights.
Good points in your post. As long the above statement remains truly intact, I'll be happy. All I ask for is the right not to be forced to teach my children something that goes against my religious beliefs.. and for me, it's more than religious beliefs.. it is a matter of what I believe to be "true" vs. "false"... "reality" vs. "fantasy".
Good points in your post. As long the above statement remains truly intact, I'll be happy. All I ask for is the right not to be forced to teach my children something that goes against my religious beliefs.. and for me, it's more than religious beliefs.. it is a matter of what I believe to be "true" vs. "false".
If we can leave evolution and all of the natural sciences out of this for a minute...
What about your children learning about the "false" religions?
Would it upset you to know that your children, like me, had homework questions about Mohammed and Buddha? Does it cross the line if your children are taught about other religions without a disclaimer that they are false?
If we can leave evolution and all of the natural sciences out of this for a minute...
What about your children learning about the "false" religions?
Would it upset you to know that your children, like me, had homework questions about Mohammed and Buddha? Does it cross the line if your children are taught about other religions without a disclaimer that they are false?
I don't favor a lot of proselytizing in school.. school is a place to learn basic skills, to learn how to relate to your peers, etc. I remember studying other cultures but don't remember anything about them being "wrong" or "false".. and I would see no need for curriculum that would talk about other religions for that purpose. What would cross a line would not be so much what my children are taught, but rather, if I would be forced to teach as acceptable or true, something which I believe is unacceptable and false. There is a difference between respectfully learning about other people and religions vs. promoting other religions as right and good, or criticizing them as wrong and evil. That kind of judgment can stay out of our textbooks, IMO. I see nothing wrong with truly objective study of other religions.
What would cross a line would not be what my children are taught, but rather, if I would be forced to teach as acceptable or true, something which I believe is unacceptable and false. There is a difference between respectfully learning about other people and religions vs. promoting other religions as right and good, or criticizing them as wrong and evil. That kind of judgment can stay out of our textbooks, IMO. I see nothing wrong with truly objective study of other religions.
I agree with your points that it is good to have certain minimum standards set as far as level of education. Standardized testing on math, reading and a certain knowledge of science and geography etc is a good thing to make sure that proper education is being received to enable our children to become productive citizens.
But when it goes beyond a common-sense approach, that is where my question lies. For example, I don't mean this to boast, but in the private school system I went to and intend on sending my children to, we consistantly score higher than average on standardized testing.. but we do not teach evolution, and our science would teach Creation when it comes to the origin of life. So what would be the need of forcing a school like mine to teach evolution? The excuse of equipping our children to make a go of it in the modern world is pretty lame.. the business field is wide open to those who want to work, and most jobs would not require a knowledge of evolutionary theory. Going to school in a disciplined (but not overbearing) environment and learning the basic skills, and how to learn and apply yourself goes a long ways.
In fact, there was a court case recently where an anti-evolutionist was fired from a biological research job because his anti-science views disqualified him from the job requirements. He failed to disclose those views before hiring and afterwards became a liability to the organization. He claimed religious discrimination but lost the suit because of the job requirements. Evolution is not needed for many jobs, but if your interests lie in the biological sciences, it is necessary.
The real question is whose rights triumph? A child's right to a good education or a parents right to limit the education and potential job prospects? There are several on this board who have expressed some serious negative reactions to their fundie parents who tried to keep them chained and ignorant. It didn't work on them but there is a rift in the family because of it.
The FLDS is an extreme example of that coupled with downright slavery - the women especially are given only the most rudimentary schooling and they must perform a prison escape to get away from the group. I don't think most fundies are anywhere near that extreme, but the attempts to limit science education of their offspring can and does have a limiting effect on whether they can pursue their careers effectively. Perhaps that is the objective - limiting what choices their children have in life.
If this whole question were not about limiting freedom and attempts at mind control, no fundie would have any problem with teaching any science, philosophy, sociology, etc. course, then addressing their own concerns or alternate theories with the children in a separate venue. In fact, that is exactly what many religious parents do in response to many of the ideas presented to their children. It is silly to think you have absolute control over your children because no one does unless they practice into criminal slavery.
Every state and the federal govt. has set up the laws to provide some basic treatment in how and what parents may do with their children. You may not starve your child, you may not beat your children to cause serious physical harm, you may not lock the child in a closet for days on end because you believe he/she is possessed by demons. You must provide education meeting the mandated educational standards. You must feed, clothe, and provide shelter to the child. You may not provide illegal drugs or alcohol to the child. etc., etc. And once the child reaches the age of legal adulthood, you must relinquish parental control and cede adult freedom to the child. Within these constraints, there is wide latitude for teaching the child your values and beliefs.
I read that CA is going to set up stricter qualifications for parents who wish to home school their kids in a an effort to ensure those kids actually receive a valid education.
In fact, there was a court case recently where an anti-evolutionist was fired from a biological research job because his anti-science views disqualified him from the job requirements. He failed to disclose those views before hiring and afterwards became a liability to the organization. He claimed religious discrimination but lost the suit because of the job requirements. Evolution is not needed for many jobs, but if your interests lie in the biological sciences, it is necessary.
I'm sure the fault here did not lie with the schooling this person received. If someone wishes to enter a career they will need to assess what education they need, and take more schooling than is available in a typical grades 1-12 pre-adult schooling environment. They are free to do this.
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The real question is whose rights triumph? A child's right to a good education or a parents right to limit the education and potential job prospects? There are several on this board who have expressed some serious negative reactions to their fundie parents who tried to keep them chained and ignorant. It didn't work on them but there is a rift in the family because of it.
The FLDS is an extreme example of that coupled with downright slavery - the women especially are given only the most rudimentary schooling and they must perform a prison escape to get away from the group. I don't think most fundies are anywhere near that extreme, but the attempts to limit science education of their offspring can and does have a limiting effect on whether they can pursue their careers effectively. Perhaps that is the objective - limiting what choices their children have in life.
I agree that limited schooling meant to keep people enslaved and ignorant is not right, and has the wrong motives. As far as limiting what choice a child has in life.. what if your child would want to become a Creation scientist or pastor? Is your child's school teaching the necessary skills to prepare them for this? We clearly cannot use this argument to apply to the promoting of evolution in schools. There are alot of biologists who believe in Creation.
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It is silly to think you have absolute control over your children because no one does unless they practice into criminal slavery.
I agree.. I don't want absolute control over my children. I want them to grow up, decide for themselves, and I hope they make what I see as healthy choices. It's not a matter of "wanting to keep them from the truth because of control" (cult) rather "wanting to be free to teach what I believe as real truth."
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I read that CA is going to set up stricter qualifications for parents who wish to home school their kids in a an effort to ensure those kids actually receive a valid education.
If a common-sense approach is used, that's good. If a "communistafornia" approach is being used (which I suspect) not so good. "Valid education" is not a very well-defined term and very open to interpretation... if we start using this to push our agendas, it can't be a good thing.
I'm sure the fault here did not lie with the schooling this person received. If someone wishes to enter a career they will need to assess what education they need, and take more schooling than is available in a typical grades 1-12 pre-adult schooling environment. They are free to do this.
This particular case involved work specific to evolution and understanding evolution, and the guy lied about his beliefs and understanding before he got the job. More problems here than schooling, yes. But you can't do college level biology without understanding the theory of evolution at the high school level. The point is that there are jobs and career fields where understanding and working with the theory is necessary. If you put aside your personal religious beliefs and are a good enough scientist to do so, then believing in creationism need not be a deterrent. Not understanding the theory at all or refusing to work with it is a deterrent.
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I agree that limited schooling meant to keep people enslaved and ignorant is not right, and has the wrong motives. As far as limiting what choice a child has in life.. what if your child would want to become a Creation scientist or pastor? Is your child's school teaching the necessary skills to prepare them for this? We clearly cannot use this argument to apply to the promoting of evolution in schools. There are alot of biologists who believe in Creation.
There are only a few biologists who believe in creationism and most of those have a sliding belief along the lines of god started it but then evolution took over and that's the way god made the world. If your child wants to become a creationist or pastor, then some form of seminary schooling is the place for that. Not science class.
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I agree.. I don't want absolute control over my children. I want them to grow up, decide for themselves, and I hope they make what I see as healthy choices. It's not a matter of "wanting to keep them from the truth because of control" (cult) rather "wanting to be free to teach what I believe as real truth."
You are free at any time in any school to teach your child what you believe is real truth so long as the belief doesn't step over into child abuse (not you, but some extremist do exactly that under the guise of religion.) Nobody is stopping you from it. You can have the religious education you please. Many churches set up catechism classes just for this purpose.
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If a common-sense approach is used, that's good. If a "communistafornia" approach is being used (which I suspect) not so good.
I think there is a growing problem with home schooled kids not being adequately prepared when they go to college. It used to be that home schooling was because educated parents didn't think the schools were giving enough education and they wanted to accelerate their kids education. Now, it is more commonly because of parents who want to instill religious training. Those parents aren't necessarily educated enough to give a good education or they are substituting religious training for academic classes. There are plenty of problems with the public schools, but home schooled kids should be educated at least to that level. It sounds like you agree to that, anyway.
I would have a problem with my child being taught ID, not because I don't want them exposed to various religions and beliefs, but because ID is a nobody's child kind of thing. Creationism is a religious belief and evolution is a scientific theory. But ID is a compromise between the two.
I would submit that ID is not a compromise-- it's just a different form of religion. When you put God in there, no matter whether he's using molecules, big bangs, or just his supernatural 6-day-creating-abilities, it's still ultimately religion. And further, it's establishment of Abrahamic religion, unless you want to give equal time to the Hindu, Tsalagi, and Wiccan (et al) belifs concerning the origin of the universe.
If we can leave evolution and all of the natural sciences out of this for a minute...
What about your children learning about the "false" religions?
Would it upset you to know that your children, like me, had homework questions about Mohammed and Buddha? Does it cross the line if your children are taught about other religions without a disclaimer that they are false?
It would bother me, frankly, to have homework questions issued about my own faith, given how abysmally the schools seem to teach more concrete subjects.
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