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View Poll Results: Would you like to kill religion?
My hope is that eventually mankind will be religion-free 43 76.79%
I believe that this anti-theist type of thinking is dangerous to human rights 13 23.21%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-18-2008, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,173,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje View Post
I read that CA is going to set up stricter qualifications for parents who wish to home school their kids in a an effort to ensure those kids actually receive a valid education.
::wondering if they'll ensure public and privately schooled kids get a decent education, while they're at it::
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Old 06-18-2008, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,173,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje View Post
It used to be that home schooling was because educated parents didn't think the schools were giving enough education and they wanted to accelerate their kids education. Now, it is more commonly because of parents who want to instill religious training. Those parents aren't necessarily educated enough to give a good education or they are substituting religious training for academic classes. There are plenty of problems with the public schools, but home schooled kids should be educated at least to that level. It sounds like you agree to that, anyway.
I've seen just the opposite evolution in my corner of the world. Fifteen years ago, the schools in my county were ranked among the best in the state; homeschool was almost solely the purview of conservative Christians and people who were terrified that little Jennifer might go to school with <gasp!> brown-skinned kids. Over the course of the last decade and a half, our district has sunk to the middle third in the state; little actual teaching occurs after FCATs (with a quarter of the year yet to go). My son was refused work at his level in math because the time and resources simply didn't exist. Another teacher frequently gave my child's class free time so she could go online (something I didn't know the specifics of until after I pulled my children out); the PE aide managed, somehow, to think she needed to punish dd for being on the receiving end of ongoing bullying.
We homeschool now. My ten year old is learning algebra through a distance-learning program. Together we're attending a cryptozoology class. We're making a timeline incorporating genealogy into study of American history, making things like Tammany Hall and the Civil War relevant to my kids. We built a sandcastle version of New Orleans (with levees) on the beach and flooded it, giving the kids a graphic demonstration of what they heard snatches of on the news. We're neither political troglodytes nor religious escapees from reality. And we're pretty representative of the families in my HS coop.
As they say, if you've seen one homeschooler...you've seen one homeschooler.
I'm curious though...why do you think HS kids should have to do at least as well as public schooled kids? Seems to me that, since we're all paying big bucks for the public schools (I'm not complaining about this, ftr, I get the "well educated populace" thing-- I'm merely stating a fact), they should be doing better than I am. I could do wonders with $9000+ per child!
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,429,319 times
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cg81,

Here's the honest answer as to why Creationism/Intelligent Design is being kicked out of school. I've said it before, and my mind hasn't really been changed. While it's perfectly acceptable for you to teach your children your personal viewpoints about how the Earth was created 6000 years ago and that all the living animals were a product of God's handiwork in a minimal amount of time, it is indeed not scientific. In essence, cg81, it is as scientifically plausible as a Flat Earth Theory or Infant Aviation Transportation Theory (Stork Theory). We would not teach our children the controversies of Stork Theory vs. Sex Theory in school because it's just not scientifically plausible. It's not based on any sort of evidence and we might even consider it a form of child abuse to do such a thing. And, yes, I am sorry to tell you in such a manner, but Evolution has just as much to support it as Sex Theory does.

The other thing you have asked is this: What if your child wanted to become a Creation pastor? Well, fine. But, don't you think that before he steps out in the world to refute evolutionary theory he better know how it works in entirety? That's part of the problem! For all the work, all the time I've spent on here, all of the typing and long posts I've written, I've been refuting arguments against evolution that aren't even really valid arguments. Things like "molecules to man", "variation within kinds", "monkeys giving birth to men" and so on and so forth are all arguments that really are never asserted by evolution or are grossly exaggerated to make evolutionary theory look ridiculously stupid. I would imagine that if you were truly going to do justice to your child's upbringing - especially if he wanted to be a Creation pastor - that he also have a full grasp of evolutionary theory, right?

But, I know you agree with me that Creationism/ID is not science and should not be taught as science. At least, I think it was you who agreed with me on that?? The fact is... it's not about infringing upon your rights as a parent to teach your kids Creation. You can do that all you want at home and no one is going to tell you any differently. But, if you're trying to get it passed in schools that I pay taxes on as well than you're going to come up against bitter rivalry. And I say that because even though I don't have kids, I truly do care for the education of the children in today's society and Intelligent Design hinders that education in the same form or fashion that Stork Theory would hinder the education of Sex Theory.

The bottom line is that it's not about how you raise your children, but also how we as a community are all going to live together with differences. It is best to leave religious practices out of public institutions such as schools, court houses and the like. It does not bode well to show that the state favors one religion over another in this country. Because it also impinges on my rights to have freedom of religion as well as yours (if the favored religion is not the one you believe in). That's the point any Atheist is going to make and that's what we're asking for. A secular society does not mean treating religious people unfairly, it just means that religion is not acknowledged or given special treatment by the state just because it is a religious institute.

So, really, what it seems you're afraid of is that this country (don't you live in Canada??) is becoming a more secular nation. Reading the works of Thomas Jefferson, the man who wrote the Constitution, it seems to me that is exactly what he wanted to begin with. Again, secularism is not a prejudicial eradication of religion - it is merely not giving special treatment to religion because of what it is.

Last edited by GCSTroop; 06-18-2008 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,502 posts, read 36,999,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
If we can leave evolution and all of the natural sciences out of this for a minute...
What about your children learning about the "false" religions?
Would it upset you to know that your children, like me, had homework questions about Mohammed and Buddha? Does it cross the line if your children are taught about other religions without a disclaimer that they are false?
Why would you think they are false, anymore than any other religion? If the child is being taught about Mohammed or Budda in a historical sense I see no problem with it. I don't think religion of any kind has a place in public schools.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,429,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Why would you think they are false, anymore than any other religion? If the child is being taught about Mohammed or Budda in a historical sense I see no problem with it. I don't think religion of any kind has a place in public schools.
But hang on just a second. Teaching religion in the sense of "This is what Muslims believe, Hindus believe, etc... etc..." I don't have a problem with as long as they're not teaching it as a fact or favoring one brand of religion over another. In school I think I remember reading parts of the Koran as well as parts of the Bible to get an understanding of what each respective religion believes. That, I have no beef with. But, I do have a beef when one particular religion becomes the central focal point for how a course or class with public tax payers money is run and stating that it is true.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:03 PM
 
2,957 posts, read 7,366,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Why would you think they are false, anymore than any other religion? If the child is being taught about Mohammed or Budda in a historical sense I see no problem with it. I don't think religion of any kind has a place in public schools.
Um - I think all religions are equally false.
I phrased my post that way because I was referencing another poster's comment about how certain things boil down to "true or false".

And your last 2 sentences contradict each other. Religions can be taught academically without any hint of religious indoctrination. That includes more than just their place in history, but also how they affect local and even global cultures.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:55 PM
 
37 posts, read 115,182 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post

How far is this going to go? And my question to you is.. how far would you like to see it go? If there was a "painless" way of ensuring that my children would grow up to shun "useless and harmful" belief in God, and rather become "intelligent and progressive" atheists, would you promote this for the betterment of mankind, as you would see it?
I'm atheist, but I think religion is generally a good thing. Humans are naturally spiritual... I think it's inherent in our psychology, and healthy. Getting anti-religion is dogmatic, robotic, and hyper-rational.
It's mostly totalitarian liberals and totalitarian conservatives that want to do horrible things in controlling and ruining lives and cultures. I don't see how things like ID have any place in a public school, but I also don't see why a private school shouldn't be allowed to teach whatever they want (generally speaking).
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:10 PM
 
812 posts, read 2,301,737 times
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Parents cannot teach their children what they do not know. I never knew anything about the FLDS so therefore I never would have ever taught my child it existed, would I have had I known, absolutely not. I know nothing about being an atheist other than they do not believe. That also, I would never have taught my child either. I don't think it's realistic at all. People are not going to teach their children what they don't live.
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,502 posts, read 36,999,655 times
Reputation: 13972
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
Um - I think all religions are equally false.
I phrased my post that way because I was referencing another poster's comment about how certain things boil down to "true or false".

And your last 2 sentences contradict each other. Religions can be taught academically without any hint of religious indoctrination. That includes more than just their place in history, but also how they affect local and even global cultures.
I agree with that, ( that's what I meant by historically ) but I think it was more an omission or poor choice of words on my part rather than a contradiction.
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Old 06-19-2008, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,502 posts, read 36,999,655 times
Reputation: 13972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinny View Post
Parents cannot teach their children what they do not know. I never knew anything about the FLDS so therefore I never would have ever taught my child it existed, would I have had I known, absolutely not. I know nothing about being an atheist other than they do not believe. That also, I would never have taught my child either. I don't think it's realistic at all. People are not going to teach their children what they don't live.
Prinny, I think children should be taught about negative things like FLDS and the Westboro Baptist Church as well as about atheists and agnostics and positive faiths..It prepares them better for what exists in the world they will have to live in...That is a parents job in my opinion. They will face a lot of negative things as well as positive, and the more they know the easier it will be for them to make positive choices.
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