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Brianrees,
thanks for your response. I read on your profile you are from the UK. I spent some time there when I was in high school on a soccer team. Don't remember much, except that the grass was fantastic.
Hi, Tic;
The grass is still very green, thanks to all the rain we are getting this year!
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I was wondering what made you think I wound be desperate? i don't remeber feeling desperate. In regards to my emotions in conflict with my rational side, you are absolutely correct. I often find myself worrying about things that I have no rational reason to worry about. Emotions always pull on the leash when you take them for a walk and only very rarely do they seem to walk in step with my reason.
Yes, sorry, Tic, I realised immediately on re-reading what I wrote that I had expressed what I meant to say very badly there. Desperate was the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said 'struggling', or something like that, because I very much sensed that you were making such an effort to untangle things in your mind. I don't want that to sound in the least patronising, either, so please don't read it as such.
And you are definitely not alone when you say the emotions always pull on the leash, i think it's how we're made. I have to confess that I've had a life-long struggle myself trying to reconcile the conflicting tug-of-war in my head between reason and sentiment. It aint (see - I can speak American!) at all easy...
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But anyway. I was hoping you might be a bit more specific about how you think my arguments are too tangled up or confused? ... so let me know where you think these confusions are.
Your key sentence:
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It's never easy trying to understand someone elses ideas especially when one has a mountain of reasons to not believe it, and that goes both ways. But I believe it is incredibly important to explore these things with more than a passing glance.
How can I put it? .... well, maybe if we accept for the sake of argument that the default position of the human mind at birth is neutral (in religious terms) - and there is no reason to suppose otherwise. Then it follows that somewhere along the line we acquire our beliefs and ideals, mostly by absorption when we are very young, which is why so many people (most?) never question what they believe in later life unless they make a conscious effort (as you do) to apply reason.
Even so, you say you have a mountain of reasons for not believing views such as mine (hope I got that right) - which is where I see the confusion kicking in. I would argue that this mountain is more of an obstacle to your reasoning than it needs to be, and certainly if you start from a fixed standpoint.
That's not to say you haven't ever re-evaluated your beliefs, (you obviously have), but I think you need to suspend belief entirely, if only for a short while, to be able to see the whole picture, uncluttered by pre-conceptions. (and we all have plenty of those).
As I see it, though, you put yourself in a defensive position with regard to God, and the system he put in place. But let's assume that God doesn't need to be defended in such a way - rather assume he doesn't exist - and let him prove otherwise - to you personally.
That's broadly been my position all my adult life, although I was a devoted Christian until my mid-teens. I have given God no end of opportunities to 'reveal himself' to me since I lost my faith, and as you will have guessed - he has consistently failed to do so. But the scientific explanation of the world, on the other hand, I find hugely appealing, even though it means we live in an IMPERSONAL Universe.
To me, therefore, despite the obvious appeal of believing that there is a god who loves me with open arms, I see no justification in accepting that belief, simply because it conflicts directly with the evidence, or lack of it, that one looks for. The rational scientific view may be cold by comparison, but that is a superficial impression. I's a world-view that has been gradually developed over centuries of dedicated observation of the facts, after all, and deserves our support and respect, even if it is flawed and incomplete.
It also has great beauty in its un-biased directness, and in its lack of compulsion to believe, or any kind of reward or retribution in an afterlife.
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I have a few questions for you. You said there is a difference in our needs for security. What do you think predisposes people to be more insecure as opposed to less.
Who knows? The psychologists might say it's because we vary in the degree to which we cling to our infantile need for parental protection, and that a child with a reasonably balanced upbringing tends to be independent at an earlier age on account of self-confidence. Or maybe, as I'm inclined to believe, it's almost as much a matter of inherited temperament. Either way, a person who is unafraid to let go, and realises that security is an illusion that we cling to, is in a better position mentally to look at religion with a cool, detached eye.
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If the universe is mostly empty space, dark and cold and there is so much suffering on this little planet in a seemingly infinite universe where we seem to be mindlesly and lonesomely spinning, where do you think the idea of things like joy came from?
The fact remains - we are powerless to alter the way the Universe is, or to try to force it to be moral or ethical in the human sense. But I don't see that things like joy needs to suffer, because joy springs from the human heart, and always will. I certainly feel much joy in the same things that you do, from a beautiful sunrise to the birth of a child, and in seeing people happy. The only difference is that I believe we should make the most of these 'blessings' without complication, and in the full knowledge that everything must have an end, one day, in accordance with natural law.
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If this is all we have ever known, why should we expect there to be something other than empty spinning and gloom?
Emptiness is, I would argue, a human invention. Life TEEMS all around us, we are part of it, if only for a short while, and who knows, we may even be re-absorbed into the Life Force and be re-cycled in some way. But Life is never STATIC, and will always resist any religious attempts to make it so, just so we can go on living in our present fixed mode for all eternity. That, with respect, is pure wishful thinking, born of insecurity.
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What do you think that original cause was for man, in the ascent of evolution, to want something different from which was completely opposite to his experience?
Now you are asking me to answer the greatest question of all time, and though I am flattered you think I might have the answer, anything I could say would be fatuous. I might venture to say that we are part of natural processes which may (or more likely - may not) have any meaning we could comprehend. Such things are truly imponderable, all we know is, if there is an answer, it's not likely to be one that regards human life as in any way more special than any other.
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lastly, you quoted Jesus, by their fruit shalt you know them. Do you know who is the them he is talking about?
Yes - US .... ALL of US.... meaning exactly what Jesus meant, that is, look at an individual's impact on others, or even on the whole planet. If that impact is positive, then we are on the right track, regardless of what we believe or don't believe.
However, as you may have noticed if you have been reading any of my other posts, I have no quarrel with the historical Jesus, whose teachings are all but swamped in the New Testament: But I very much do have a problem with folk who claim to follow His example of love, but whose 'fruits' are always negative and unhelpful.
Sorry about the length, but I have done my best to answer all your points, as they deserve to be... Brian.
Last edited by brianrees; 11-01-2008 at 08:36 AM..
Ok, first off, I am in no way bashing atheists! To tell the truth, I am not so sure if I believe in God? I am curious as to why you don't.
Because too many things happened in my life that would not absolve a loving god, and too many bad things happen to allow for one.
One of the biggest was seeing a video of animals being skinned alive in China. I wondered how an all powerful, all loving God could sit and watch and do nothing, based on the "free will" of the man being more paramount. Love motivates one to do many things and tolerate very little and Love does not motivate this alleged God.
The world is far too random to be run by a loving God's will.
Ok, first off, I am in no way bashing atheists! To tell the truth, I am not so sure if I believe in God? I am curious as to why you don't.
I'm atheist primarily because I wasn't socialized into any religious beliefs. I didn't learn much about religious beliefs until I was a mid-teen, and by that time, I was old enough that the religious beliefs struck me as completely absurd. I actually thought that people were putting me on when they first detailed typical religious beliefs for me.
It would be akin to you, as an adult, encountering someone who explains that they believe that plastic garbage bags are really tools that aliens use to spy on Earthlings--you'd simply think they were nuts. You wouldn't be tempted to believe what they believe.
That's just how it works for me when it comes to religious beliefs. I no more feel I have to justify my atheism or work to retain it than you would feel you need to justify or work to retain your belief that plastic garbage bags are NOT alien espionage devices.
Because too many things happened in my life that would not absolve a loving god, and too many bad things happen to allow for one.
One of the biggest was seeing a video of animals being skinned alive in China. I wondered how an all powerful, all loving God could sit and watch and do nothing, based on the "free will" of the man being more paramount. Love motivates one to do many things and tolerate very little and Love does not motivate this alleged God.
The world is far too random to be run by a loving God's will.
Right on nebulous! - Whilst on the subject of cruelty to animals, let's not forget that Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem had special gullies built into the floors to carry away the daily river of blood from sacrificial animals (by the thousand). God liked the smell of blood and burning flesh very much, apparently. Nice, eh?.
"Think for yourself and question authority.
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities — the political, the religious, the educational authorities — who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing — forming in our minds — their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself." ~Timothy Leary
Brian,
yea man, it's tough to evalute one's beliefs from the middle of the circle. You mentioned it being necessary to completely suspend one's beliefs in order to seriously question them. I think that even if one wanted to, this is probably impossible. Beliefs have a way of finding their way deep down into the nooks and crannies of the being and innervate the soul in inperceptible ways. I don't see faith as something that can be easily taken off like a garment and inspected for holes. I do think that a spirit of self-criticism or questioning is necessary for any belief to be valid, and am trying to employ that. I believe, based on some verses in the bible, that this is applauded by God.
You mentioned a struggling in my tone. Yea, probably. I have validated christianity to myself before through study. But that was more in the context of it in comparison to other religions. I have been studying more recently, maybe a year or so, mostly focused on how christianity stacks up against atheism, because that is where the most difficult questions come from. So my brain seems like is is constantly being challenged to think and see things in a way that is wholly seperate from my own. I am in nursing school, but I find myself regularly reading philosophy books and anything I can get my hands on that sifts through the dregs of the "why's" of the human experience. I never had a more insatiable curiosity, it's rather odd. But there is never an end to knowing, is there? Sooner or later one must stake a claim on what they believe is true, yet still keep an ear open to questioning.
I don't have much to respond to your post, although I really enjoyed reading it. May I just say I so appreciate intellectual honesty and cordiality in responses such as yours. It shows a maturity and thoughtful response as oppesed to more of the knee-jerk reaction I typically get from most, though not all, people in this forum.
I wanted to end with a question for you that has more to do with your experience. You mentioned there is no justification based on the evidence that one looks for, for believing in a god who is loving, regardless of how appealing that may be. What evidence would one look for or expect to find? and conversely, What are the evidences that you have decided upon that deny that existence? From what you have posted here and in previous posts, I see that you don't believe in God but that you cannot rule out that possibility, even if only based on logical grounds.
Also, I was wondering what you do for work? Also, I am from New Hampshire and I was wondering where the Old Hampshire is? Somewhere over there?
Brian,
yea man, it's tough to evalute one's beliefs from the middle of the circle. You mentioned it being necessary to completely suspend one's beliefs in order to seriously question them. I think that even if one wanted to, this is probably impossible. Beliefs have a way of finding their way deep down into the nooks and crannies of the being and innervate the soul in inperceptible ways. I don't see faith as something that can be easily taken off like a garment and inspected for holes.
Yes, I agree: I think I know where you are coming from Tic, having been a believer in my youth, before disillusion set in. It is indeed very difficult to step out of any mould, and one's views are probably coloured by our early beliefs all our adult lives, no matter how hard we struggle to detach ourselves. But it isn't impossible to do so, with an effort of will, if you start to feel the need to look beyond your confines. As I said, the default position of every child born into the world is set at neutral, unless you believe in that pernicious doctrine of Original Sin whereby every child is born 'evil' and drenched in iniquity.
It follows that we should be able to re-set our programming when the answers supplied by religion fail to satisfy. You have a questioning mind, which is usually regarded as a sign of high intelligence, so to some extent the questioning process will inevitably kick in sooner or later.
Not that I have an agenda to de-convert you or anyone else, providing you are happy in your faith, and use it in a positive way that benefits yourself and others. But that said, I can empathise with your continuing search for answers, having failed to satisfy myself that the bible is indeed Divinely Inspired.
I was even a precocious Sunday School teacher at the age of 12 or 13, following in my dad's footsteps. But my journey took me through several faiths and philosophies once I got going, ranging from Theosophy to Gnostic Christianity, all of which I studied intensively. I have to say though, that the legacy of all this study boils down to a loose form of non-worshipping Buddhism, tinged with a residue of Christ's basic moral teachings (but without an afterlife). (Zen Buddhism is particularly mind-blowing, once one gets one's head around its remarkable de-constructive philosophy).
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I do think that a spirit of self-criticism or questioning is necessary for any belief to be valid, and am trying to employ that. I believe, based on some verses in the bible, that this is applauded by God..... You mentioned a struggling in my tone. Yea, probably. I have validated christianity to myself before through study. But that was more in the context of it in comparison to other religions. I have been studying more recently, maybe a year or so, mostly focused on how christianity stacks up against atheism, because that is where the most difficult questions come from.
Yes... once you start to take the broader view, one that is wider than any individual religion, you are forced to re-evaluate all sorts of things, and the outcome can be far from predictable.
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So my brain seems like is is constantly being challenged to think and see things in a way that is wholly seperate from my own. I am in nursing school, but I find myself regularly reading philosophy books and anything I can get my hands on that sifts through the dregs of the "why's" of the human experience. I never had a more insatiable curiosity, it's rather odd. But there is never an end to knowing, is there?
Nope!
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Sooner or later one must stake a claim on what they believe is true, yet still keep an ear open to questioning.
Why the rush? - enjoy the ride, it's great fun unless you are looking for instant answers to some of the biggest conundrums we can tackle. 'Truth' is so elusive that a definitive, fixed form of it probably never exited, - it may be an illusion we cling to in order to make some sort of sense of an AMORAL UNIVERSE - and one that sets no more regard on human life than it does on any other form of life. This can be seen as a rather destabilising thought, but it's an idea that fits all the evidence, I would say. We've no choice but to come to terms with it, unless you can convince yourself otherwise. No barrier to an ethical life, though - religion can't claim a monopoly on morals.
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I so appreciate intellectual honesty ...etc etc.
I tend to ramble a bit, but thanks, Tic... you too, are unusually honest and courteous.
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I wanted to end with a question for you that has more to do with your experience. You mentioned there is no justification based on the evidence that one looks for, for believing in a god who is loving, regardless of how appealing that may be. What evidence would one look for or expect to find? and conversely, What are the evidences that you have decided upon that deny that existence?
That's a BIGGIE, Tic, and no mistake!
As someone said, 'a single act is worth a thousand prayers' - that contains the heart of the argument, I would say. In other words, whereas you can predict and observe the impact of a helpful act, usually, resorting to petitioning the famous 'Invisible means of support' for intervention is, - as several studies have shown - demonstrably ineffective. By the law of averages, one or two prayers out of the millions offered up every day may appear to be 'answered', but are entirely statistically predictable, and can't be used as evidence that God answers our prayers.
Apart from that, when did god last reveal himself to us humans? In biblical times, possibly, but there has been an awfully long silence in the last 2000 years. When you consider all the opportunities in all that time when god might have intervened to alleviate terrible suffering - he was conspicuous by his absence. I call this divine indifference at best, and sheer sadism at worst.
Personally, I find that the sheer elegance and beauty of impartial scientific thinking on the nature of the universe leaves no room for a capricious Father Figure in the sky. Science may not have all the answers, but nor does it threaten us with eternal damnation if we choose not to believe in it.
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From what you have posted here and in previous posts, I see that you don't believe in God but that you cannot rule out that possibility, even if only based on logical grounds.
Being as vulnerable to pain as the next person, I can see that a trusting belief in a BENIGN ENTITY of some description would have its appeal, particularly when we lose those we love. But that's not reason enough to suspend disbelief, no matter how comforting such a belief would be. We can make nothing be so just by wishing it...
Yes, we do suffer terribly at such times, but as someone said, "Grief is the price we pay for loving"
I will answer your remaining questions in a DP ---- Brian.
Last edited by brianrees; 11-02-2008 at 08:59 AM..
Right on nebulous! - Whilst on the subject of cruelty to animals, let's not forget that Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem had special gullies built into the floors to carry away the daily river of blood from sacrificial animals (by the thousand). God liked the smell of blood and burning flesh very much, apparently. Nice, eh?.
Oh yes. As a child, we were told the animals didn't suffer. Such BS.
I think the people who believe this stuff should visit a slaughterhouse. It would change their lives forever.
The god of the bible is a vicious, blood-thirsty god. Why would I ever pray to him to help me?
Oh yes. As a child, we were told the animals didn't suffer. Such BS.
I think the people who believe this stuff should visit a slaughterhouse. It would change their lives forever.
The god of the bible is a vicious, blood-thirsty god. Why would I ever pray to him to help me?
That's one of the reasons why my two cats call themselves Atheists and regard the bible as a load of bull. Who would blame them?
As I see it, though, you put yourself in a defensive position with regard to God, and the system he put in place. But let's assume that God doesn't need to be defended in such a way - rather assume he doesn't exist - and let him prove otherwise - to you personally.
That's broadly been my position all my adult life, although I was a devoted Christian until my mid-teens. I have given God no end of opportunities to 'reveal himself' to me since I lost my faith, and as you will have guessed - he has consistently failed to do so. But the scientific explanation of the world, on the other hand, I find hugely appealing, even though it means we live in an IMPERSONAL Universe.
To me, therefore, despite the obvious appeal of believing that there is a god who loves me with open arms, I see no justification in accepting that belief, simply because it conflicts directly with the evidence, or lack of it, that one looks for. The rational scientific view may be cold by comparison, but that is a superficial impression. I's a world-view that has been gradually developed over centuries of dedicated observation of the facts, after all, and deserves our support and respect, even if it is flawed and incomplete.
Brian (or anyone else),
I left the above from your last post because I wanted to ask you a few questions based on what you said.
1) WHat would one be looking for - what kind of evidence, if you will- when waiting for God to reveal himself? You said you have personal experience with this 'waiting' upon God and he failed to show up. WHat criteria did you have in your mind that you were expecting from him?
2) ...I forgot the second one...but it was fantastic!
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