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GCS, I'll think about it and get back to you. Almost time to leave work. You are correct that the second is easier to come up with. I was wondering what that challenge was meant to prove? Let me know and I'll get back to you, thanks.
My point was that you stated this, and I quote:
Not believing in a higher righteousness is dangerous because there is nothing holding you back from following a demagogue or being swept away with the rest of the country when a decorated war hero comes and swells the emotions of the people to lead them to holocaust.
For one - I would say careful reason and logic along with a skeptical mind should be sufficient enough.
The reason I point this out is for two reasons - and I want to "head this off at the pass" before it gets to what I suspect you are getting at with Atheist dictatorships.
1. The nature of belief in and of itself gives false justification for atrocities because people believe they are doing the work of God. Therefore, their actions, regardless of how we interpret the holy writs that say otherwise are dangerous elements in and of themselves. I find that to be entirely more dangerous than Atheists.
2. I suspect that you were saying that Atheists regimes headed by Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao to name a few were the results of Atheism in and of itself. And I would have to say that is entirely false. While Stalin or the others may very well have been Atheists, that does not necessitate that they killed in the name of Atheism. In all actuality, if you look at any severely Communist State that holds the people under such severe rule the leader of the party becomes a religious figurehead. Indeed, prior to Stalin's take over, the czar of Russia was looked at as something of a demi-God. When Stalin took over he made it imperative that the people essentially worshipped him in every way, thereby putting him as the centerpiece of worship and thus he became "God" to the people of Russia.
Might I also point out that the very vast majority of those who did commit crimes under these dictators were probably very religious themselves. Again, the power of belief - whether in a God or a political leader made out to be a God can be a very dangerous thing. It takes a very precarious and fickle mindset to be so easily swayed to perform such acts of violence.
Nevertheless, I will say that I agree that in extenuating circumstances it is possible for all humans to lose that sense of humanity. It happens every day in this world full of war, famine, and disease. People will do what it takes to survive - of that, I have no doubt. But, I sincerely doubt that people actually commit atrocities in the name of Atheism - it wouldn't even make sense.
Yea, I'll try to explain what I meant, I knew that would need some clarification. Let me also say first that Chesterton was a christian and this quote probably should have been qualified a bit more by him. There are also dangers in believing you can fly, for example.
It seems as though, and feel free to correct me on this, atheism sort of adopts the general moral values of it's surrounding culture, wherever in the world that person is. This may be a generalization, but it seems to be true. In our society, based on christian values by the founding fathers, puritan pilgrims, etc. the morals of atheists are generally good. When the moral climate changes from judeo-christian morality to something different, when something new is introduced, it seems like, in the history of atheism, they will go with the norm of society. There is nothing holding them back, no higher righteousness to say to the most powerful ceasar that something is wrong, even when you are only a peasant. Not believing in a higher righteousness is dangerous because there is nothing holding you back from following a demagogue or being swept away with the rest of the country when a decorated war hero comes and swells the emotions of the people to lead them to holocaust. I think this might be what chesterton was talking about.
I'm not being vociferous, I'm talking about our common human experience, the basal desire, th animal instinct of all humans
I am in no way saying all atheists belong to the Thrid Reich, anymore than all christians bomb abortion clinics. "christians" have killed many in holy wars. Atheists have killed many. But christianity is illogical when it does such things, because it is against everythign christ talked about. However, it seems that Atheism can logically lend itself to ethnic cleansing (not that it always does). No higher moral law, all humans are 'blood and soil', might makes right, man declares what is the highest ideal and plows over all in it's way to reach that. What is holding him back? What corresponds with the reallity of the human experience? Don't just look at our country. Look at africa, the nazi atrocities, genocide.
Im not accusing, no human is better than any other, I'm just asking for an honest look at the outworkings of atheism. Does history testify to the validity of chesterton's quote?
Other posters have responded -- and here are a couple of points from my side:
-- I do not think there is a unique set of values within Christianity. The higher set of values you want people to follow, will never be agreed to. There are many interpretations of the Bible and of Christianty. You guys need to first come up with a "unified theory" that at least is not in dispute among yourselves. Then, talk to us with more credibility.
-- All religions adapt to local mores. Simple example: I know many Jews and Hindus in the US who love pork and a burger! Humans are impacted by culture, economy, etc too.
-- I am not religious but I consider religion to be like soap. It is generally good for you. There are different brands that the big kahoonas of each brand want you to buy. I think taking things too literally causes problems especially since the books followed have different variants.
--The biggest knock I have against ANY religion is the fact that each claims to be derived from the word of god. How can this be possible? If only 1 religion is right, the rest of the 70-80% of people on earth are wrong - and this is illlogical.
Am I afraid if I stop believing in god I will go on a killing spree? I think we are all a hop skip and a jump from a killing spree. We dont have to look too far back into our history to see what happens when accoutability and law are taken away - LA riots. These are people like you and me. All we need is the right reason and circumstance. I can tell you that without ultimate accountbility I would, at the very least, have a much easier time pulling a trigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tic_constant
How deep is the atheist's morality?
....what does your character depend on? You tear down my assertion without positing any of your own. I think you err if you think your intellect or reason can keep you from doing something stupid or harming others in the heat of the moment. What reason do you have to hold back from vengence when you have been profoundly wronged?
To your first quote, t_c, you conclude, erroneously, that absent a strong Christian (or Muslim or Jewish) belief system, we are subject to uncontrolled outbursts because we wouldn't live in fear of final retribution.
Your second quote also erroneously concludes that only Christians (or again, other religious followers) have thought through the consequences of hostile, violent actions, and therefore show some additional restraint. Many (most?) of the LA rioters where avowed Christians (this was confirmed in an LA Times story a few months after the riots). Christianity has historically and frequently shown its extremely violent side but it excuses it behind a righteous evangelical mandate. Perhaps through that process they also ignore it when accounts are "squared" in the big book? In other words, you think that Christian violence occurs less? I'd say look at: The Crusades. The Salem Witch Hunts. The conversion of African, Hawaiian, Fijian, American Indian and other unfortunate cultures at the hand of Jesus' largess and demands. Book burnings. The Spanish Inquisition. Alternate religions? The current world-wide fundamentalist Islamic rage against the West and Christianity (time for another Christian-led Middle East Crusade. Oh yeah, I forgot; we have that now in Iraq, with sights also now set on Iran. "Go" Bush the Born-Again!).
A man or woman outraged by actions against him, or through his mental imbalance, will strike out violently, irrationally and without pre-meditation or "a careful review of the legal or ethical or religious consequences". That last part, sir, doesn't happen.
My personal non-religious ethics though, empower me to depend on my own values, which I often re-examine, since I know I have only myself to account to. I cannot conveniently defer to someone else. I'd say it's arrogant to assume that only those who believe in a higher note-taking power (thx GCSTroop) can be relied and counted on to behave well.
How often have we heard on the Evening News, some wacko say "The Devil..." or "God made me do it"?
Alternately, how often have we heard "My atheism made me do it?"
I care deeply about my friends, the environment, and all the little and big co-evolved animals (we DO NOT have Dominion over the beasts... as the bible would have us demonstrate with true conceit). I'm here on these fascinating posts trying to get across those values I rely on and believe. As an atheist I'm, metaphorically, regularly spit on by Christians, and treated to childish irrational logic along with statements that I'm illogical, pre-disposed and highly biased. Yet I turn in a wallet if I find one on the street. I stop people and tell them their tires are going flat. I make sure my humming bird feeder is always full! I even go to church with my wife to make her feel good. (God, now THAT's a real chore!)
Why? Why indeed. Because it's simply the right thing to do, to believe, and to profess. No God required. Unless for you, God is required. That's your personal call.
Not believing in a higher righteousness is dangerous because there is nothing holding you back from following a demagogue or being swept away with the rest of the country when a decorated war hero comes and swells the emotions of the people to lead them to holocaust.
For one - I would say careful reason and logic along with a skeptical mind should be sufficient enough.
The reason I point this out is for two reasons - and I want to "head this off at the pass" before it gets to what I suspect you are getting at with Atheist dictatorships.
1. The nature of belief in and of itself gives false justification for atrocities because people believe they are doing the
2. I suspect that you were saying that Atheists regimes headed by Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao to name a few were the results of Atheism in and of itself. And I would have to say that is entirely false. While Stalin or the others may very well have been Atheists, that does not necessitate that they killed in the name of Atheism. In all actuality, if you look at any severely Communist State that holds the people under such severe rule the leader of the party becomes a religious figurehead. Indeed, prior to Stalin's take over, the czar of Russia was looked at as something of a demi-God. When Stalin took over he made it imperative that the people essentially worshipped him in every way, thereby putting him as the centerpiece of worship and thus he became "God" to the people of Russia.
Might I also point out that the very vast majority of those who did commit crimes under these dictators were probably very religious themselves. Again, the power of belief - whether in a God or a political leader made out to be a God can be a very dangerous thing. It takes a very precarious and fickle mindset to be so easily swayed to perform such acts of violence.
Nevertheless, I will say that I agree that in extenuating circumstances it is possible for all humans to lose that sense of humanity. It happens every day in this world full of war, famine, and disease. People will do what it takes to survive - of that, I have no doubt. But, I sincerely doubt that people actually commit atrocities in the name of Atheism - it wouldn't even make sense.
Troop,
I'll have to be brief for now. I wasn't implying that people kill in the name of atheism, per se. Also, in regards to leaders in communists states becoming almost like religious leaders, or demi-gods, as you put it, I agree with you and I find this a natural consequence of atheism.
Next, I'll quote you, Again, the power of belief - whether in a God or a political leader made out to be a God can be a very dangerous thing. It takes a very precarious and fickle mindset to be so easily swayed to perform such acts of violence. I don't see how this is uniuqe to people of faith. I think this could very easily be any human, atheist or believer. I hope you aren't implying that atheists have a better track record than believers (Islam, christian, etc), or even vise versa, because I don't think that is verifyable first of all, nor relavent, because we would be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't done something damnable in their life.
In regards to your first point, it's necessary to define which belilef system you are talking about. There are a lot of whackos out there, you are right. Just because they misinterpret a philosophy, doesn't nullify the philosophy. You say that your common sense and logic keeps you from commiting acts of atrocities. Isn't it equally as possible, and hasn't it already occurred, that another atheist who isn't as logical and has no higher moral code above their own good senses commits equally as destructive acts?
Troop,
I'll have to be brief for now. I wasn't implying that people kill in the name of atheism, per se. Also, in regards to leaders in communists states becoming almost like religious leaders, or demi-gods, as you put it, I agree with you and I find this a natural consequence of atheism.
Next, I'll quote you, Again, the power of belief - whether in a God or a political leader made out to be a God can be a very dangerous thing. It takes a very precarious and fickle mindset to be so easily swayed to perform such acts of violence. I don't see how this is uniuqe to people of faith. I think this could very easily be any human, atheist or believer. I hope you aren't implying that atheists have a better track record than believers (Islam, christian, etc), or even vise versa, because I don't think that is verifyable first of all, nor relavent, because we would be hard pressed to find anyone who hasn't done something damnable in their life.
In regards to your first point, it's necessary to define which belilef system you are talking about. There are a lot of whackos out there, you are right. Just because they misinterpret a philosophy, doesn't nullify the philosophy. You say that your common sense and logic keeps you from commiting acts of atrocities. Isn't it equally as possible, and hasn't it already occurred, that another atheist who isn't as logical and has no higher moral code above their own good senses commits equally as destructive acts?
I agree with what you said but my point is more centered around the fact that while it is certainly true that Atheists can do horrible things just as well and easy as they can do good things just as any believer can do the two, that to do bad things in the name of Atheism does not really follow. It's a non sequitir. I don't do anything because I'm an Atheist with perhaps the exception of debating why I am an Atheist. I don't do good acts because I'm an Atheist and I don't do bad acts because I'm an Atheist. I presume you don't do good acts because you are an "A-Zeusist" nor do I suspect that the things you're not proud of in your life were a result of your "A-Zeusism."
It takes ideologies such as religion to do something bad "in the name of" something. Does that make sense?
I keep checking in with this forum and there is nothing new, what gives? How many times is the "are you afraid of Sarah Palin" post going to be in the top spot? Is there anything new to add to that, really? BTW, it was posted on 9/10, over a month ago. Does anyone have anything slightly interesting to discuss....
Hey I love the Sarah Palin thread. It is my daily wake up call. Makes me happy inside.
Actually this is in the Atheism forum, and unfortunately people group up together with those crazy religious people.
I'm guessing he knows where he is....He's a mod...
godspeed,.
freedom
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Atheistic Values
