Interesting Read... One Of Fred Phelps' Sons Is An Atheist (believe, punishment)
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He seems to be a pretty reasonable guy too. I especially like the part where he refers to teaching children about hell as child abuse. I tend to feel much the same way.
Running from hell | Ubyssey Online (http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=5624 - broken link)
Wow. It's always good to hear the success stories of people who have escaped such horrible family (or in this case - religious cult) experiences. Although the guy still seems severely damaged by his past. I'm not convinced that all teaching of Hell amounts to child abuse, but this guy's case is a perfect example of how religion offers psychos a particularly tragic way to abuse their families.
I'm not convinced that all teaching of Hell amounts to child abuse, but this guy's case is a perfect example of how religion offers psychos a particularly tragic way to abuse their families.
I think it's a horrible thing. I'm sure you can water it down and say to your five-year old that if you don't believe in God than you will go to a "very bad place". But, really, that's not what hell is apparently about from what I understand. Apparently hell is about fire, torture, and eviscerating pain. I see that as a horrible thing to instill in a child. That because they don't believe in something they will be writhing in agony and pain forever.
Taken in any other context, teaching a child something as brutal as what hell is supposed to be and then telling them that they have a very real potential of going there is, in my opinion, downright horrible.
I can't imagine telling a child that because they have committed a crime for the simple act of not believing in something that they will be horrendously and savagely tortured beyond any human understanding.
I'm sorry... That just sounds like child abuse to me. To me, knowingly instilling that sort of fear in a child at the young age children are taught about these things is hideous. The thing is that it's socially acceptable. It's so perfectly normal to so many people that they don't see there being anything wrong with it.
I think it's a horrible thing. I'm sure you can water it down and say to your five-year old that if you don't believe in God than you will go to a "very bad place". But, really, that's not what hell is apparently about from what I understand. Apparently hell is about fire, torture, and eviscerating pain. I see that as a horrible thing to instill in a child. That because they don't believe in something they will be writhing in agony and pain forever.
Taken in any other context, teaching a child something as brutal as what hell is supposed to be and then telling them that they have a very real potential of going there is, in my opinion, downright horrible.
I can't imagine telling a child that because they have committed a crime for the simple act of not believing in something that they will be horrendously and savagely tortured beyond any human understanding.
I'm sorry... That just sounds like child abuse to me. To me, knowingly instilling that sort of fear in a child at the young age children are taught about these things is hideous. The thing is that it's socially acceptable. It's so perfectly normal to so many people that they don't see there being anything wrong with it.
Well, yeah, that's all true. And I know that this is Dawkins' point. But I still think that it is an untrue generalization. That is, sometimes true, sometimes not. I guess it depends on the way that it is taught.
I'm only using myself as an example. I realize that many people had varying kinds of trauma associated with growing up Christian but I did not endure much. I learned about Hell. I even remember being scared of it. But, like all of the mythological aspects of Christianity, it just faded away after I hit puberty and started thinking for myself. Granted, I have a subjective view of myself, but I don't feel that my mentality has been damaged by the heaven/hell myth.
Parents abuse their children - religion itself doesn't.
Well, yeah, that's all true. And I know that this is Dawkins' point. But I still think that it is an untrue generalization. That is, sometimes true, sometimes not. I guess it depends on the way that it is taught.
I'm only using myself as an example. I realize that many people had varying kinds of trauma associated with growing up Christian but I did not endure much. I learned about Hell. I even remember being scared of it. But, like all of the mythological aspects of Christianity, it just faded away after I hit puberty and started thinking for myself. Granted, I have a subjective view of myself, but I don't feel that my mentality has been damaged by the heaven/hell myth.
Parents abuse their children - religion itself doesn't.
OK, I see your point. I don't really remember being taught much about hell as a child. Although I can't say I remember when I first learned about it either so it may have been at a young age.
I think perhaps a better way for me to present it may be to say that by teaching a child the "facts" (<--- I've just entered the Twilight Zone) about hell in the manner that we all understand it as: Fire, Torture, Eviscerating Pain and Agony, etc... etc... that it seems almost borderline cruel. Especially, if you're telling them that it's so easy to go there for simply not believing. That's the thing that really bothers me more than anything. No real crime committed, no people injured, nobody was murdered, nobody was raped, beaten or shot. Buildings were not razed and babies were not eaten. The simple act of just not believing grants you an eternity of this sort of punishment. That whole notion just absolutely abhors me.
I'd be more apt to punish my kids for believing in something without properly examining the evidence for it than believing in something that has no evidence at all. But, that's just me.
Hmmm... Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the way it is presented to a lot of children. Maybe I should start a thread about that?
Did you folks read some of the comments? I particularly liked this one.
Mavaddat posted the following on October 31, 2008 at 12:57 pm.
Shirley Phelps-Roper is a good example of the intellectual pollution that religion emits. She is the smoke stack, spewing her putrid vapor onto the Internet — a bombastic excrement tending to nauseate all but the most vigorous debunkers.
Far from being tax-exempt, there should be a pollution tax on every church for the burden it causes civilization. The more active a religion is in proselytizing, the heavier the levies against it should be. Witness here how religion impedes scientific and ethical progress. It is cultural inertia, par excellence. Religion drags on the feet of humanity, imploring us to fear freedom and embrace perpetual immaturity.
Shirley Phelps-Roper believes that God’s moral authority derives from his ability to induce the most excruciating pain in those who disobey him. In other words, Shirley describes as “moral” and “good” whatever reflects the will of the most powerful tyrant. Thus, since the ostensible “author” of the Bible occupies that position in her superstition, the Bible is automatically “good” for her. What she fails to understand is that morality has nothing to do with power. Murder is wrong, for example, not because it happens to disagree with the will of an imaginary sky-dictator, but because it violates the conditions of the world that humanity is striving to produce.
The only appropriate response to the Westboro Baptist Bullies is to admit that it is better to suffer for eternity at the hands of some demon than to carry out the evil designs of her hateful Bronze Age deity.
Did you folks read some of the comments? I particularly liked this one.
Mavaddat posted the following on October 31, 2008 at 12:57 pm.
Shirley Phelps-Roper is a good example of the intellectual pollution that religion emits. She is the smoke stack, spewing her putrid vapor onto the Internet — a bombastic excrement tending to nauseate all but the most vigorous debunkers.
Far from being tax-exempt, there should be a pollution tax on every church for the burden it causes civilization. The more active a religion is in proselytizing, the heavier the levies against it should be. Witness here how religion impedes scientific and ethical progress. It is cultural inertia, par excellence. Religion drags on the feet of humanity, imploring us to fear freedom and embrace perpetual immaturity.
Shirley Phelps-Roper believes that God’s moral authority derives from his ability to induce the most excruciating pain in those who disobey him. In other words, Shirley describes as “moral” and “good” whatever reflects the will of the most powerful tyrant. Thus, since the ostensible “author” of the Bible occupies that position in her superstition, the Bible is automatically “good” for her. What she fails to understand is that morality has nothing to do with power. Murder is wrong, for example, not because it happens to disagree with the will of an imaginary sky-dictator, but because it violates the conditions of the world that humanity is striving to produce.
The only appropriate response to the Westboro Baptist Bullies is to admit that it is better to suffer for eternity at the hands of some demon than to carry out the evil designs of her hateful Bronze Age deity.
Oh, now that is good! Too bad I can't rep him for that!
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the way it is presented to a lot of children. Maybe I should start a thread about that?
2 threads? Well, I'll respond here in the heathen section -- I do think that you have a misunderstanding about the way that Hell is presented so here's how it was for me:
In my church and my home, Hell was never used as a base fear tactic. Rather, it was just a basic part of the religion. Nobody ever threatened me with it - certainly not for normal offenses of children (i.e. - if my parents caught me in a lie they never brought up the idea of Hell). The pastor of my church did not try to instill fear in the congregation by screaming about Hell - not ever. On the other hand, Hell was certainly considered a real place where people who do not believe in Jesus end up.
Now, my parents were/are not exactly Bible literalists. For instance, they had no problem with thinking of a day as written in Genesis as a different time frame from the modern 24-hour day. I remember in detail a conversation I had with my mother about Hell as a small kid. She told me that she did not believe in the "fiery pit" version of Hell where souls get poked by some kind of demon with a pitchfork. Instead she described a place where a person cannot feel any happiness or hope - only darkness, despair, and oppression. She said that nobody can know the actual "look" of Hell just like nobody can know what God looks like. This is what made sense to her and she believed it.
This brings me to another point. If teaching about Hell is child abuse, then teaching a kid to be Christian is itself child abuse. I know that some people believe that but it is ridiculous to me. Here's the thing: parents who teach their kids about Hell actually believe in Hell. They are not just looking for an excuse to scare their kids. What if your kid was dying of cancer - is it abuse to describe the ways that cancer will destroy their body? It certainly could be if they crept into the child's hospital room and frantically described black cancer cells slowly growing until there is nothing left of the child but a living corpse. But most rational parents don't do that. The responsible thing would be to frankly and sensitively describe the disease and answer their questions about it in the same manner. Same goes for Hell.
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