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So if a "primitive" as you call them, have a belief system, why would it not be called a dogma? Is dogma reserved for organized religions like christianity?
What is a *dogma as you use the term?
If a preacher blesses water and then sprinkles the holy water on a believer, or lays on the hands and heals "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit", how is that any different from a shaman's practices and secondly why do you believe shamans to fall under the "primitive" banner? Ethnocentrism perhaps?
Excellent post. Add to that eating and drinking magically transformed crackers and wine (ok, grape juice for the Protestants) and, of course, Catholics, Protestants and Fundamentalists who practice the driving out "demons". That is so enlightened! Primitives indeed!
The real question is why do so many of those who have a need for the "mystical" explanation of things have to insist that they are right and everybody is else is wrong or missing something if they have another view of it? The protestations smack of an insecurity and need to make others validate their views.
I much prefer ptsum's approach of this is what it means to me and how it affects my life. He respects other people's differing interpretations and does not insist that science is wrong. It is a mature approach that does not belittle any one else or insist that what is demonstrably false is true.
This is always round two of the rebuttle. Once people get past the "show me evidence" phase they go into this "why are you pushing your beliefs on me?" phase.
I'm not - at all. I was merely addressing those who are adamant that nothing supernatural exists and demand evidence to the contrary without seeking it themselves.
I wasn't talking to people, like the above, who don't care either way.
You might just as well ask why Einstein or Bohrs sought to push their views of science on others before they were accepted theories, or Galileo for that matter. It's the quest for truth. Humans have been after it for quite some time. Many don't care - most are content to mow their lawns on Sunday and go to work on Monday.
Some of us are not, so I don't understand why discussing the fundamental truth of our nature smacks of insecurity. Might as well say Plato smacked of insecurity.
This is always round two of the rebuttle. Once people get past the "show me evidence" phase they go into this "why are you pushing your beliefs on me?" phase.
I'm not - at all. I was merely addressing those who are adamant that nothing supernatural exists and demand evidence to the contrary without seeking it themselves.
I wasn't talking to people, like the above, who don't care either way.
You might just as well ask why Einstein or Bohrs sought to push their views of science on others before they were accepted theories, or Galileo for that matter. It's the quest for truth. Humans have been after it for quite some time. Many don't care - most are content to mow their lawns on Sunday and go to work on Monday.
Some of us are not, so I don't understand why discussing the fundamental truth of our nature smacks of insecurity. Might as well say Plato smacked of insecurity.
could it have been said better?
what happened to our mental capacities while we were adhereing to a system inconsistent with the truth, whether expressed in biblical terms or in the language of real and true humanism?
I, personally, have had a great many very visceral experiences with the mystical realm interplaying readily with the conventional physical realm - even through perfect strangers. One or two I could write off, but I have been guided through extraordinary experiences and developed mental powers that simply cannot be explained away.
I have come to the conclusion that such powers reside on the frontiers of science. Our primitive society senses these on a basic level and uses the structures of religion and spirituality to explain them until science gets around to it. At that point, it won't matter whether or not there is a God. Powers far beyond those attributed to "God" will be accessible to all through science.
So, I'm just curious, how do you personally reconcile the existence of these powers with atheism?
Hello Bluefly,
I might be able to shed some light on mystical experiences and reconciling them with atheism.. I became an atheist during college and graduated to agnosticism, probably during my 40's. My brand of agnosticism rejects all traditional religions as nonsense. At the age of 63 I had a powerful mental experience which changed my life. Much study and research indicates I had what is classified as a mystical experience. So, now I am an agnostic who has had a genuine mystical experience.
I might be able to shed some light on mystical experiences and reconciling them with atheism.. I became an atheist during college and graduated to agnosticism, probably during my 40's. My brand of agnosticism rejects all traditional religions as nonsense. At the age of 63 I had a powerful mental experience which changed my life. Much study and research indicates I had what is classified as a mystical experience. So, now I am an agnostic who has had a genuine mystical experience.
Regards,
ole meph
I would say I fit the same category.
I find many atheists throw the baby out with the bathwater, dismissing anything beyond the rational because of the absurd beliefs of religious zealots (and the impact of those beliefs).
The whole point of this thread was to figure out how to differentiate the two - moving beyond the people who think their god is going to smite you and moving into the realms of mysticism written about by the likes of Einstein, Heidinger, Pauli, etc... or, perhaps more fittingly (though I open myself to ridicule) the Jedi Force concept of Star Wars.
For the purposes of anonymity, I am not interested in disclosing my personal experiences to any significant degree. Suffice it to say, it hasn't been just one strange occurance, but rather a slowly gathering body of evidence (to me) as I came to understand how the universe really works more and more.
I find many atheists throw the baby out with the bathwater, dismissing anything beyond the rational because of the absurd beliefs of religious zealots (and the impact of those beliefs).
The whole point of this thread was to figure out how to differentiate the two - moving beyond the people who think their god is going to smite you and moving into the realms of mysticism written about by the likes of Einstein, Heidinger, Pauli, etc... or, perhaps more fittingly (though I open myself to ridicule) the Jedi Force concept of Star Wars.
For the purposes of anonymity, I am not interested in disclosing my personal experiences to any significant degree. Suffice it to say, it hasn't been just one strange occurance, but rather a slowly gathering body of evidence (to me) as I came to understand how the universe really works more and more.
I agree 100% with Bluefly's remarks. Experience has taught me that disclosing details of my experience on the internet, or to people in general, invites ridicule, disbelief and personal attacks. At this point in my life, I am not interested in trying to prove anything to anyone. Quite frankly, I am interested in finding other people who have had similar experiences and are willing to share, openmindedly, off the forum.
I agree 100% with Bluefly's remarks. Experience has taught me that disclosing details of my experience on the internet, or to people in general, invites ridicule, disbelief and personal attacks. At this point in my life, I am not interested in trying to prove anything to anyone. Quite frankly, I am interested in finding other people who have had similar experiences and are willing to share, openmindedly, off the forum.
And you are absolutely correct, there is no reason to have to prove your experiences to anybody else, because they are your experiences and not anybody else's and is that not the whole point of it, what you believe and experience?
And you are absolutely correct, there is no reason to have to prove your experiences to anybody else, because they are your experiences and not anybody else's and is that not the whole point of it, what you believe and experience?
Thank you ptsum. Actually, I do not believe everything I experience. I do consider my experiences as an input into my search for reality.
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, have a belief system, why would it not be called a dogma? Is dogma reserved for organized religions like christianity? 
