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Old 04-15-2009, 01:31 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
8,014 posts, read 3,743,199 times
Reputation: 2580
Quote:
Originally Posted by homeward08 View Post
I'll take a wack at this.
1)How is living for Christ a Lie? Jesus is a Historic Figure. No real historian doubts that. The beliefs set forth in the bible are the glue that helps society to work. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or "Though shall not kill" are two well known examples of Judean/Christian teachings.
2) The great centers of education in this world were started by churches as well as the first hospitals. The American Red Cross was started by Christians. Most Charities were started by religious people. St Judes Research Hospital that has saved so many lives? That was started as a promise to God and St Jude.
3) I studied World Religion and the History of Christianity before becoming Catholic but even before that I could see truth in the biblical teachings. I won't say that reading the bible will make you Christian but it might make you understand the devotion that most people have to their faith.

Your Jesus is not a historical figure. You have no hard proof, relic or artifact of his existance. It is myth.

This being said, the rest of your statement is invalid. Things done in the name of myth have standing only by their deeds, not the fallacy they claim as their foundation.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:00 PM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 8,560,101 times
Reputation: 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by homeward08 View Post
I'll take a wack at this.
1)How is living for Christ a Lie? Jesus is a Historic Figure. No real historian doubts that. The beliefs set forth in the bible are the glue that helps society to work. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or "Though shall not kill" are two well known examples of Judean/Christian teachings.
Trying to live according to your values (in this case your religion) is not necessarily a bad thing. Depending on what those values are.

However, the last part is not true at all. There is zero evidence not contained within the bible itself or in forgeries to corroborate that there ever was any such figure in history. Let alone any of the stories about Jesus. The claim is tantamount to claiming that the Harry Potter story is true because there are a bunch of people who believe in it and there are several books talking about it. Actually, the Harry Potter stories are less self-contradictory.
Quote:
2) The great centers of education in this world were started by churches as well as the first hospitals. The American Red Cross was started by Christians. Most Charities were started by religious people. St Judes Research Hospital that has saved so many lives? That was started as a promise to God and St Jude.
When the Church controlled everything and burned the ancient libraries containing the knowledge gained by all those pagans, it is pretty easy to control the schools. For many centuries, the only source in Europe for education was the Church itself - and that was heavily contaminated by the indoctrination of the Church canon. It took throwing off the shackles of the church before any real science could blossom.

That said, yes, there are many charities that do good work that are started and supported by churches. But those usually include proselytizing as a part of it. So it is not given freely, but with a heavy dose of indoctrination. That makes it not entirely altruistic and in some cases it was really a big negative to those they were "helping." Like what the missionaries did in Hawaii.
Quote:
3) I studied World Religion and the History of Christianity before becoming Catholic but even before that I could see truth in the biblical teachings. I won't say that reading the bible will make you Christian but it might make you understand the devotion that most people have to their faith.
I can agree that there is some truth and good in biblical teachings. But there is also a lot of really harmful and nasty junk in them. Understanding the devotion is one thing, swallowing the contradictions, logical fallacies, and downright vicious things in there is quite another. Perhaps you can slide on by and ignore all the nasty direction in there and only take the good. I cannot. And unfortunately there are people who use these parts to justify horrendous behavior (re the Fred Phelps article, e.g.)

Our values as a society have advanced beyond the values written by the original authors 2600 and 1800 years ago (depending on which parts).
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:22 AM
 
45 posts, read 64,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
Your Jesus is not a historical figure. You have no hard proof, relic or artifact of his existance. It is myth.

This being said, the rest of your statement is invalid. Things done in the name of myth have standing only by their deeds, not the fallacy they claim as their foundation.
Obviously discussing this with you will be fruitless. You might say that Jesus was not a devine (I would disagree) but every serious scholar agrees that Jesus the man existed. I have studied the matter. Maybe you should too.
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:36 AM
 
45 posts, read 64,451 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
So the Chinese and Japanese and the Indians (Eastern) are all immoral - funny how their cultures were ahead of the conquering colonists technologywise?
Before the reformation, the church was likely the only place one could get an education - you know the dark ages. The state was the church and visa versa.

No problems there, but there are just too many inconsistencies and bad rap of crusades and inquisitions to take it at face value.

Politics is what drove religion and it is politics that drives it today.

(short version)
At least you argue with ideas instead of name calling. I disagree with you about Education because there were countries even in the Dark Ages that could have provided Universities or Hospitals. As for China, Japan and India technological advancement doesn't change the fact that they were dictatorships that believed in the Emporer as a diety just like the Romans and Egyptions did.
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
8,014 posts, read 3,743,199 times
Reputation: 2580
Quote:
Originally Posted by homeward08 View Post
Obviously discussing this with you will be fruitless. You might say that Jesus was not a devine (I would disagree) but every serious scholar agrees that Jesus the man existed. I have studied the matter. Maybe you should too.
Every serious scholar? Or just the ones that you thought would support you? You have spoken to every scholar in the entire history of the world, decided who was serious (probably by their support of your unsupportable views) and they all support you? And then you feel compelled to come to an atheist forum to spread the light with what you know wll be considered lies?

Maybe you should widen you "studies" to include differing points of view. You may actually learn something. Although you theists would never admit that your story is not 100% accurate. Typical.
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 8,560,101 times
Reputation: 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by homeward08 View Post
Obviously discussing this with you will be fruitless. You might say that Jesus was not a devine (I would disagree) but every serious scholar agrees that Jesus the man existed. I have studied the matter. Maybe you should too.
Give one non-biblical citation of the time. Just one. And don't bother with the Josephus forgery. Even the Catholic church now admits that it was a later forgery.

There is not a single citation of any such person in a society that documented everything. Especially everything of any note. There was documentation of various Jewish rabble rousers and rebels, but not a single reference to any Jesus figure that could be reasonably construed as a non-miraculous man of the sort.

And if a single one of the miracles had actually happened, the Romans would have talked about it. The news would have raced around the
Empire. But it didn't. Because it never happened.

History is not made of later assertions and forgeries. That is called fiction.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:13 PM
 
133 posts, read 179,788 times
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Actually I don't mind hearing logic. In fact I believ in a lot of stuff Christians don't such as EVP's IVP's OBE's and NDE's some do but most disregard as acts of satan I really believe they are real. Also I believe that Heaven and hell may not exist in fact I dont think Hell is real and I think Heaven may not either. I do know there is a afterlife and we live on after this though for sure
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:21 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,517,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje View Post
Give one non-biblical citation of the time. Just one. And don't bother with the Josephus forgery. Even the Catholic church now admits that it was a later forgery.

There is not a single citation of any such person in a society that documented everything. Especially everything of any note. There was documentation of various Jewish rabble rousers and rebels, but not a single reference to any Jesus figure that could be reasonably construed as a non-miraculous man of the sort.

And if a single one of the miracles had actually happened, the Romans would have talked about it. The news would have raced around the
Empire. But it didn't. Because it never happened.

History is not made of later assertions and forgeries. That is called fiction.


Give me one good reason to believe Julius Caesar existed. No doubt you'll pull up some references in documents to him, maybe some archaeology. I'll just arbitrarily throw those out...because, you know....those can be forged. They can be faked.

You guys are so predictable. You ask for proof...then when we give you 4 Gospels, the book of Acts, and numerous letters recounting the teachings of Christ...not to mention the fact that a church was founded and people willingly died for him.....you refuse to believe...asking for more proof...because what we gave you isn't good enough.

Honestly, I doubt that there is such a thing as adequate proof for you.

Last edited by kdbrich; 04-16-2009 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:49 PM
 
2,955 posts, read 4,885,459 times
Reputation: 1865
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
He commands us to make disciples. In addition, there is room for doing what we enjoy in life.

I enjoy defending the faith, and sharpening my skills by picking apart the arguments of atheists. I realize it's unlikely that any of you guys will actually admit that one of us makes sense, or decide to believe what we say...but it does give me experience for when I will run into someone with an open mind in the real world.
You've done much picking but I can't detect even a slight honing of your skills in defending your faith. I see you have posted over 2,500 times. Do you feel that you've become any sharper? This is an honest question because - with as much objectivity as I can muster - your picking has remained as dull as when you began.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:03 PM
 
133 posts, read 179,788 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Give me one good reason to believe Julius Caesar existed. No doubt you'll pull up some references in documents to him, maybe some archaeology. I'll just arbitrarily throw those out...because, you know....those can be forged. They can be faked.

You guys are so predictable. You ask for proof...then when we give you 4 Gospels, the book of Acts, and numerous letters recounting the teachings of Christ...not to mention the fact that a church was founded and people willingly died for him.....you refuse to believe...asking for more proof...because what we gave you isn't good enough.

Honestly, I doubt that there is such a thing as adequate proof for you.
This is the best post I've ever read here...

Also, along with that - prove that we landed on the moon. I mean, I'm sure you'll give me pictures and media coverings of it, and wikipedia articles, and science websites/articles too... but I'll just throw them out because..well, they aren't real. I just think they're fake because I said so. I read sciencehoaxes.com and they said it was fake, therefore it is. It's..it's a government coverup or something, but we never landed on the moon. We never ever have. The pictures and all that stuff are just fake.

We never landed on the moon and Julius Ceaser never existed. Also, the sun is a planet not a star because I heard some scientist say so.
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