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Montanaguy,
Got some Q's for you.
Where do you think all the resurrection mumbo jumbo came from? What do you think happened to the body? What motivated his followers to die for their belief in his resurrection?
Not addressed to me, but here is my take on these questions:
1. Resurrection mumbo jumbo? Exactly that. Mumbo jumbo to start trying to control undiscipllined minds of the time. No Jesus (as portrayed in the bible) existed, hence no resurrection.
2. What happened to the body? No Jesus, no body, so the question is moot.
3. Motivation of followers? See the definition of cults. Follow that by the tendency of people to be so gullible as to follow a currently popular story.
Not addressed to me, but here is my take on these questions:
1. Resurrection munbo jumbo? Exactly that. Mumbo jumbo to start trying to control undiscipllined minds of the time. No Jesus (as portrayed in the bible) existed, hence no resurrection.
2. What happened to the body? No Jesus, no body, so the question is moot.
3. Motivation of followers? See the definition of cults. Follow that by the tendency of people to be so gullible as to follow a currently popular story.
Just my Opinions.
Well put. To add to it - resurrection-of-the-god myths are very old, maybe as old as agriculture. There were a lot of resurrection religions at the time and before of the development of the christian myth. The likely source is one or more of these myths reformulated into the conveniently missing Jewish ethnic base. The close parallel between these older myths and the christian story is striking.
As far as Revelations and its whole tirade - Given its age and the time it was written, it is most likely a Jewish tract/fantasy written in hopes that their impotent god would wreak revenge on the Romans for kicking them out of Palestine (the Jewish Diaspora). It is written as if the coming of the vengeful god is just around the corner, hence the 1900 years of expecting the 2nd coming in our time. Each time it doesn't happen, they say, oh well, it'll be soon. For 1900 years.
At what point does the rational person finally say, oh, the prediction is wrong?
Well put. To add to it - resurrection-of-the-god myths are very old, maybe as old as agriculture. There were a lot of resurrection religions at the time and before of the development of the christian myth. The likely source is one or more of these myths reformulated into the conveniently missing Jewish ethnic base. The close parallel between these older myths and the christian story is striking.
Materialists are handicapped by their focus only on the physical . . . ironically . . . using a very non-physical phenomenon (their consciousness) to do so. The flap over design is not trivial (and not settled) just because religion usurped it in an attempt to infiltrate science curricula. There is indisputable design (DNA) . . . the issue as usual is really about the origin of it (random + selection + time . . . or God).
The focus on the evolution of our physical design only further clouds things in understanding the non-physical products (spiritual "fossil" record) of the design for the evolution of our non-physical consciousness (alluded to here by Tesaje). The parallels that Tesaje points to represent evidence of the design built in to the evolution of consciousness itself. The successful survival of only one instance for millennia (Jesus) tends to self-validate his identity on that basis alone, IMO.
Materialists are handicapped by their focus only on the physical . . . ironically . . . using a very non-physical phenomenon (their consciousness) to do so. The flap over design is not trivial (and not settled) just because religion usurped it in an attempt to infiltrate science curricula. There is indisputable design (DNA) . . . the issue as usual is really about the origin of it (random + selection + time . . . or God).
The focus on the evolution of our physical design only further clouds things in understanding the non-physical products (spiritual "fossil" record) of the design for the evolution of our non-physical consciousness (alluded to here by Tesaje). The parallels that Tesaje points to represent evidence of the design built in to the evolution of consciousness itself. The successful survival of only one instance for millennia (Jesus) tends to self-validate his identity on that basis alone, IMO.
Or more likely, it is representative of the cycles of the earth, the cycles of the life of the food we eat since agriculture was invented.
Occam's razor is apparently a concept you cannot understand.
There was man -- that is true (no doubt about it).
Was there a man named "Jesus" as described in Bible who came alive after death? Absolutely not.
So, "Jesus", "God", and everything else in religions are all fictional.
Then, why such fictional figures and their fictions exist? The purpose of religion is to control followers -- through lies.
Can religion reinvent itself to survive? I doubt it. One reason is, all religious systems depend on humans to "interpret" the scriptures. And these "interpreters" all have different agendas. So it can never be a good system. On top of that, the killer is, everyone in the world starts to realize the falsehood of religions.
Or more likely, it is representative of the cycles of the earth, the cycles of the life of the food we eat since agriculture was invented.
Occam's razor is apparently a concept you cannot understand.
Oh . . . I'm quite familiar with the Franciscan Monk whose idea has been taken to heart by atheists with no other recourse for their preferred presumptions. (BTW . . . there are instances when the simplest explanation is NOT the right one.)
I have always been more compelled by the evidence that, during his lost years, the one we know as "Christ Jesus" spent years in Asia learning wisdom from masters of other traditions.
He mastered that wisdom (what eastern tradition calls illuminating all 7 chakras) and returned to teach others. The primitive people thought he was a miracle worker (instead of just a master of physics) and turned him into a god.
As for the return, I think that he demonstrated what all humans are capable of achieving (and, really, the only reason we're here). He never demanded to be worshipped and it's doubtful his actual life was anything like the mythology we know today (the same mythology that has existed in cultures for thousands of years).
His return, I believe, will simply be an awakening of the collective consciousness to this untapped potential of the the mind. We are now a physically mature society. I suspect it's time to turn our growth inward to the next frontier.
When I say "I believe", I mean it in the sense that I have been guided through extraordinary journeys by forces far beyond my rational cognizance and through experiences with other physical people and objects for which I had no control, yet aligned perfectly.
So, for me, it would be an extraordinary leap of faith to believe there is nothing else out there. In fact, I would have to deny my entire existence to begin to trick myself that I'm somehow making it up (I say that because everytime I post on the Atheists forum I get a one-line attack that I'm delusional or some other over-simplified dismissal).
It's actually quite humorous going from being attacked by the religious literalists who think I'm taken by the devil and the Atheists who think I'm insane.
...clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...
Don't let the religious literalists cloud your view of what Christ actually said and did. It was quite profound and had nothing to do with following rules in a book.
When I say "I believe", I mean it in the sense that I have been guided through extraordinary journeys by forces far beyond my rational cognizance and through experiences with other physical people and objects for which I had no control, yet aligned perfectly.
This is the part of your post that I find most intriguing. What makes you so sure that you have been "guided by forces" which you cannot recognize? I would call the 'alignments' you refer to as chance serendipity. Simply because you had no control over what happened does not indicate a supernatural influence. (Let alone the mythical Christ.)
What I'm talking about isn't just "Oh look! I got money when I needed it!" I'm talking about a knock down, drag out spiritual quests that took me to the edge and shattered the veil that hides the great unknown from us. I have seen and experienced things that simply do not exist in the reality we think we know. And they weren't just in my mind.
The veil is very thin for me between the other side and this one. All I could suggest, if you're interested, is to just trust. Stop assuming you know anything about the world in which we live. Stop dismissing coincidence and "intuition" in favor of logic and rationality.
See where it takes you. Just don't judge it. Let it come. You'll see what I mean. Not a belief in anything.
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