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If one doesn't believe in absolute morals (a al Christianity), which is what the atheistic worldview promotes, then how can a "moral defense" be promulgated when one person's ideas of morals is just as valid as anothers, even if they're in total opposition? This makes no sense to me.
If one doesn't believe in absolute morals (a al Christianity), which is what the atheistic worldview promotes, then how can a "moral defense" be promulgated when one person's ideas of morals is just as valid as anothers, even if they're in total opposition? This makes no sense to me.
Not all atheists think that morality is subjective. Watch the videos.
My point is this: What is the atheist foundation for absolute morals if there's no God, the absolute moral giver, to be able to provide such a "moral defense" against religion? I know atheists can be moral. That I don't question at all. What I question is what is their basis for this morality, esp. if I'm now being informed atheists can have absolute morals. It had always been my understanding that atheists believed morality, like truth, is subjective so one person's morals are different than another, but it's all okay.
As an aside, I believe man-made religion can be a stumbling block for many -- believers and non-believers alike.
My point is this: What is the atheist foundation for absolute morals if there's no God, the absolute moral giver, to be able to provide such a "moral defense" against religion?
Oh, puhleeze, not this same old question AGAIN? You're asking the question wrong, wrong, wrong! There is no "atheist foundation for absolute morals". The ONLY thing atheism is, is a lack of belief in deities, period. There's no atheist rulebook or atheist book of morality that we follow. Each atheist chooses what they consider to be moral and immoral, and it can vary wildly from one to another of us, because hey -- all we have in common isa disbelief in gods!! Why is that so difficult to comprehend?
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I know atheists can be moral. That I don't question at all. What I question is what is their basis for this morality,
Imagine that suddenly you found out that your entire belief system was false (yes I know, this is a hypothetical question, bear with me...). Would you then pick up a gun and start shooting people, simply because you now knew there wasn't a god and thus no threat of afterlife punishment?
If you wouldn't do that, WHY not? What would your moral basis for not going on a killing rampage be?
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esp. if I'm now being informed atheists can have absolute morals.
I don't speak for any other atheist other than myself, but personally I do NOT have absolute morals about most things. Murder, for instance. I believe some killings are absolutely justifiable and -- for lack of a better word -- righteous. One of the few things I do have absolute morality about is pedophilia. But most things you Christians consider "sinful" are things about which I think morality is subjective. Sometimes they can be the right thing to do, other times probably not so much.
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It had always been my understanding that atheists believed morality, like truth, is subjective so one person's morals are different than another, but it's all okay.
Yep. That's what I believe. But again, you're trying to shove all of us into one box together, which is just as insane as trying to say "all blondes think and act the same, have the same opinions, the same politics, the same yadda yadda yadda". See what I mean? You can't do that, because it doesn't make any sense.
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As an aside, I believe man-made religion can be a stumbling block for many -- believers and non-believers alike.
My point is this: What is the atheist foundation for absolute morals if there's no God, the absolute moral giver, to be able to provide such a "moral defense" against religion? I know atheists can be moral. That I don't question at all. What I question is what is their basis for this morality, esp. if I'm now being informed atheists can have absolute morals. It had always been my understanding that atheists believed morality, like truth, is subjective so one person's morals are different than another, but it's all okay.
As an aside, I believe man-made religion can be a stumbling block for many -- believers and non-believers alike.
The source for human morality is the same whether or not one attributes it to the society's god figure or not. Morals do vary from society to society.
The morality about women is stark in its contrasts from society to society. It varies from women should be protected, never struck, allowed the same freedoms as men and the same proscriptions
to
the women are slaves and chattel, should be beaten to keep them subservient, are blamed and defiled when raped even tho they had no say in the matter, their only use is to bear children and do the work given to them while behaving pleasingly and loyally to their masters.
These two moral systems are diametrically opposed. The christian bible promotes the latter morality (despite all the claims to the contrary) yet the dominant morality in the US and most western countries is the first.
The source of the morality is the dominant agreement of the society that uses it. Attributing it to god is just the weapon used to enforce the morality - usually because the god-enforced moralities have winners and losers in the schema. The losers, of course, must be brainwashed to following the moral code.
The argument about morality is one of the strongest to not believe in god or the books purporting to be god's word. They invariably are highly immoral in my view and contradictory to modern secular laws. They are certainly contradictory to the ideals of freedom.
Oh, puhleeze, not this same old question AGAIN? You're asking the question wrong, wrong, wrong! There is no "atheist foundation for absolute morals". The ONLY thing atheism is, is a lack of belief in deities, period. There's no atheist rulebook or atheist book of morality that we follow. Each atheist chooses what they consider to be moral and immoral, and it can vary wildly from one to another of us, because hey -- all we have in common isa disbelief in gods!! Why is that so difficult to comprehend?
The whole religious argument about morality is based on a false premise there is any such thing as an absolute basis for morality. Those who believe that pick and choose which moral prescriptions they take from their religious tracts and that changes as the societies change. This very act invalidates their claim that the morality is absolute and came from their god. Not to mention all the contradictions in morality laid out in their religious tracts.
Do these christers really believe in the clearly laid out morality in Leviticus? The Taliban does and few of us in the west believe they are moral.
There is no sensible argument to be had with those who base their whole premise on falsehoods.
This all kinda reminds me of the whole shoe throwing thing in Iraq. As its a major deal there worthy of jailtime, throwing a show in the West, is just considered a childish temper tantrum at best.
Point being: What's a big deal to one group may not be to another group. I wonder how many Mideastern people have thrown a show at someone (whose not Mideastern) in the USA thinking it would elicit a major response and were suprised at the lack of reaction they got. Because to their culture its a major insult, not so much to us.
That analogy also applies to moral, ethics and how they relate to religion. A person can be "good" without being religious. Whats a big deal to you in the name of the gods doesn't apply to a non-believer whose just doing "whatever" because its just the right thing to do period.
Tesaje, I only wish Fundamentalist came here to see your posts on this subject. He is always over on the Christian forum trying to use the argument that atheists ascribe to something to derive their morality and that 'something' is God and they are only suppressing it, thus being rebellious. If they were not so sensitive over there, this would be great to copy and paste there.
Oh, SuSushi also made some great points.
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