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Old 04-29-2009, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,097,381 times
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Since Stalin received training for the priesthood in a seminary, he's not a good example of atheism in action. Anyway, no one should think that all atheists are paragons of high ethical behavior.

Fullback32: Good point.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Western NC
651 posts, read 1,413,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjohnson View Post
Wrong factually and theoretically.
No combination of words exist that would change your mind.
That's faith.
Why would you want to change my mind? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on this forum; I'm just expressing my opinion.

I'm actually very open to being wrong and changing my outlook on issues. I used to be religious and defended my position vehemently. Over the years, I've read and listened to new viewpoints. Slowly, my view changed and I was able to give up religion. I never really had faith, anyway. At the time, I wanted faith; I just couldn't force it.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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this sounds very plausible to me.

faith may give way to knowledge (which hopefully is recognized to be consistent with ancient wisdom).

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Old 04-29-2009, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,006,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
Nonsense, and it completely misrepresents what I said. I am in no way attempting to discount any mass killings- but the mass killings are not the result of atheism, but rather a sacrafice of people for a belief system. Maybe it isn't "religon" b/c it doesn't involve the supernatural, but to suggest that these deaths were the result of atheism is, in my view, completely absurd. They are the result of totalitarian regimes that believe in mass sacrifice for the "good" of the state.
Yes you are trying to discount it. When the state is atheistic you want to disassociate the killings from the atheism, when the state is theistic in nature you want to associate the killings with the theism. Its a double standard.

The reality is that its not religion or atheism that causes these sort of tragedies....its human nature. Whether society is religious or not, humans will still be humans. Nazi Germany, USSR, China, etc show how movements in both science and political philosophy can result in widespread deaths. Religion is now alone in being used as a basis for genocide.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland's 6th District.
8,358 posts, read 25,165,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
What would be the benefits? Here are a few off the top of my head:
While your heart may be in the right place, your list of benefits is based on the assumption that religion is the sole cause of societal ills, let alone that all religion is the same. It also implies that people will magically 'wake-up' if religion where to disappear (or be out-lawed?), or that somehow societies would be better off if they have never had it while ignoring the fact that some people are just irrational to begin with.

While some religious doctrine is downright lame, there are many people who subscribe to one religious belief or another whom are intelligent and caring people; just like there are many folks who are non-religious who are totally ignorant. It is easy to look beyond the person and blame their religion for their flaws, but it's really a chicken or the egg question: are people ignorant because of their religion, or would they be/were they just as ignorant before?

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Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
1. Higher test scores in science.
No, not at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
2. Less discrimination against homosexuals, women, other races, etc.
While some people adhere to homophobic, sexist, or racists beliefs simply because their bible tells them to I seriously doubt that there would be a massive change in attitude towards these subjects if religion were to simply disappear. With or without religion, there are still societal and cultural belief systems that shape how an individual feels about such issues. I guaranty that all three are problems in areas that have little religious influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
3. No religious wars; although, I concede that wars over property, power and money would still occur.
All wars are fought for power and control. WWI, WWII, Civil War, Spanish-American war, the Barbary Wars (at least from the Western perspective), American Revolution, Gulf War, Afghanistan, just to name a few, were not religious wars. The Bosnian and Chechyan Wars are the only two that immediately come to mind that were motivated by religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
4. More respect for other forms of life since were all animals.
I think that it is simply human nature to believe that we are at the top of the ladder. One of the more hard-core animal rights activists that I know of just happens to be a Christian and a Republican...and a vegan. He is definitely one of the most tolerant people that I have met. He is also not the norm, mind you, but just goes to shoe that people do come in all types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia160 View Post
5. Laws passed/repealed on the basis of modern logic rather than ancient 'wisdom'.
This is subjective since 'modern logic' is up to the person that you are dealing with, and everyone is going to have a different opinion of what it means.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:05 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,160 posts, read 9,149,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
This is subjective since 'modern logic' is up to the person that you are dealing with, and everyone is going to have a different opinion of what it means.
Logic itself isn't subjective. Anybody who thinks so clearly doesn't understand how logic works.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,006,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq View Post
Logic itself isn't subjective. Anybody who thinks so clearly doesn't understand how logic works.
I'd bet everything that I have that I know hundred times more about logic than you, yet its unclear in what sense logic is "objective" to me. Certainly, among speakers of the same Language there are general rules that are followed....but does this make it objective? Not really. How about across different languages? Its unclear.

Also, the logical foundational of science is not fixed and can be modified with new observations. Nothing is sacred, not even classical logic.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:31 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,289 posts, read 87,139,375 times
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its already been done, its called soviet union. definitely not disneyland.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:32 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,289 posts, read 87,139,375 times
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
Since Stalin received training for the priesthood in a seminary, he's not a good example of atheism in action. Anyway, no one should think that all atheists are paragons of high ethical behavior.

Fullback32: Good point.
no but he is definitely a good example of an angry former church member and his behavior after he leaves the church.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:49 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,160 posts, read 9,149,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'd bet everything that I have that I know hundred times more about logic than you, yet its unclear in what sense logic is "objective" to me. Certainly, among speakers of the same Language there are general rules that are followed....but does this make it objective? Not really. How about across different languages? Its unclear.

Also, the logical foundational of science is not fixed and can be modified with new observations. Nothing is sacred, not even classical logic.
So you mean to tell me that coming to the conclusion the elves exist because I have cookies is logical as long as I truly believe it to be so?
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