"An abuse too far by the Catholic church" (Revelations, attending)

[cncracer]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Father Rueda who DreaningSpires mentions blames child abuse on homosexuals who have infiltrated the catholic church.
He states that all pedophiles are homosexual but does'nt mention the young girls that were raped by priests and were beaten if they complained about it.
I've read the Irish report about the endemic abuse in the church, and to say that homosexual priest were to blame for it all is just plain wrong.


It's been many years since I read Fr Rueda's book -- please provide a citation where he says "all pedophiles are homosexual" -- I do not remember that. I would be very interested in seeing it.

I have NEVER said "homosexual priests were to blame for all abuse in Ireland" nor would I ever say such a thing!

The research of Rueda, Engel, and Brady, read together, however, reveals that the Catholic Church has been systematically and deliberately infiltrated by a number of groups--and individuals--who wholly and explicitly reject, in deed and often in word, the most basic teachings of Catholic morality and that this infiltration/corruption has reached some of the highest levels. This is what many understand Paul VI to have meant when he stated that the "smoke of Satan" had entered the Vatican.

You make it sound like a conspiracy to ruin your church. When will you link the Atheist, Humanist, or Agnostics movements to this infiltrating of the catholic church? To read you post is sounds like that is next.
If you will go back in history you will see the sexual dallying among priest and popes was the norm for most of the last 2000 years. The extent of the abuse today, and the ability of the masses to read and get the news, is why these things can no longer be swept under the rug.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by cncracer

You make it sound like a conspiracy to ruin your church. When will you link the Atheist, Humanist, or Agnostics movements to this infiltrating of the catholic church? To read you post is sounds like that is next.
If you will go back in history you will see the sexual dallying among priest and popes was the norm for most of the last 2000 years. The extent of the abuse today, and the ability of the masses to read and get the news, is why these things can no longer be swept under the rug.

FROM THE CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW (an attempt to explain, not proselytize)

Satan has been using various means to destroy the Catholic Church since its very foundation. All the "groups" (and I use the term loosely) that you mention above have been used as tools for this very purpose over the centuries.

The amount of scholarship in this regard is vast, and ranges from Fr. Vincent Miceli, PhD (theologian and philosopher) to Fr. Malachi Martin, Randy Engel, Father Rueda (mentioned in a previous post), and Bella Dodd, a former high-ranking member of the Communist Party, to name a few.

As regards sinful, hypocritcal popes--you are once again confusing the actions of some of the Catholic Church's members (including heirarchy) with the actual teachings of that Church itself (see my post to Albion above). I have tried to explain this difference to both of you, but have all but given up.

Should you do some research using the sources I cite above (Stephen Brady's site is particularly easy to navigate), especially since you have such a keen and active interest in this issue, perhaps the difference will become clearer.

Finally, I have no interest in "sweeping these matters under the rug." If I did, I would be HIDING Randy Engel's book from you, not recommending it.

[Sizzly Friddle]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

FROM THE CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW (an attempt to explain, not proselytize)

Satan has been using various means to destroy the Catholic Church since its very foundation. All the "groups" (and I use the term loosely) that you mention above have been used as tools for this very purpose over the centuries.

The amount of scholarship in this regard is vast, and ranges from Fr. Vincent Miceli, PhD (theologian and philosopher) to Fr. Malachi Martin, Randy Engel, Father Rueda (mentioned in a previous post), and Bella Dodd, a former high-ranking member of the Communist Party, to name a few.

As regards sinful, hypocritcal popes--you are once again confusing the actions of some of the Catholic Church's members (including heirarchy) with the actual teachings of that Church itself (see my post to Albion above). I have tried to explain this difference to both of you, but have all but given up.

Should you do some research using the sources I cite above (Stephen Brady's site is particularly easy to navigate), especially since you have such a keen and active interest in this issue, perhaps the difference will become clearer.

Finally, I have no interest in "sweeping these matters under the rug." If I did, I would be HIDING Randy Engel's book from you, not recommending it.

You are taking something that is very simple and making it complicated.
Satan didn't abuse children. Clergy in the catholic church did.
From the outside looking in, the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles.
You are wasting your time here being an apologetic for your church. The facts speak for themselves.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Sizzly Friddle

You are taking something that is very simple and making it complicated.
Satan didn't abuse children. Clergy in the catholic church did.
From the outside looking in, the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles.
You are wasting your time here being an apologetic for your church. The facts speak for themselves.

First of all, let us be clear on a few things, Sizzly Friddle:

I am not "apologizing" here for the Catholic Church or for ANYONE!! It is not MY PLACE to apologize for the sins of child abusers, whether they are wearing a Roman Collar or a dog collar!

Moreover, where did I say that "Satan abused children"? Please provide a citation to this ludicrous claim.

In regard to your statement, "the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles" -- I'm speechless. Could you please provide a link to the "Catechism" where you found that particular porkie?

Should I spell it out again for you?

1. Some Catholic Clergy abused children.
2. Others in the Catholic heirarchy covered it up.
3. Both 1 and 2 are grave sins according to the Magesterium (the moral teachings of the Catholic Church)
4. When individuals commit such grave sins, they align themselves with Satan and separate themselves from God; as a very wise person once said to me, "Satan laughs when little children suffer."

Is that clear enough for you?

I would like to see you participate in this thread in good faith, but if you continue to put words into my mouth and to Catholic-bait, I will report you to the mods for violation of the TOS.

Have a great day.

[Sizzly Friddle]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Satan has been using various means to destroy the Catholic Church since its very foundation.

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

First of all, let me be clear on a few things, Sizzly Friddle:

I am not "apologizing" here for the Catholic Church or for ANYONE!! It is not MY PLACE to apologize for the sins of child abusers, whether they are wearing a Roman Collar or dog collar!

I think you are confusing being an apologetic with apologizing.
This is a brief snippet from wikipedia explaining the difference:

The term "apologetic" comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), which means in defense of. Therefore, a person involved in Christian apologetics is a defender of Christianity or Christian apologist.
In the English language, the word apology, derived from the Greek word apologia, usually refers to asking for forgiveness for a blameworthy act. Christian apologetics are meant, however, to argue that Christianity is reasonable and in accordance with the evidence that can be examined.

Moreover, where did I say that "Satan abused children"? Please provide a citation to this ludicrous claim.

I never said you did. You are the one who brought him in to the conversation. You claim that satan is trying to destroy the church. So from your point of view does satan have any responsibility in this matter? My point is from an atheist view of not blaming bad behavior on imaginary characters.

In regard to your statement, "the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles" -- I'm speechless. Could you please provide a link to the "Catechism" where you found that particular porkie?

Some might call that quote mining. What I actually said was "From the outside looking in, the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles." One might think this because of all the cover up that has been done.

Should I spell it out again for you?

1. Some Catholic Clergy abused children.
2. Others in the Catholic heirarchy covered it up.
3. Both 1 and 2 are grave sins according to the Magesterium (the moral teachings of the Catholic Church)
4. When individuals commit such grave sins, they align themselves with Satan and separate themselves from God; as a very wise person once said to me, "Satan laughs when little children suffer."

Is that clear enough for you?

I will spell this out for you.

1. Some Catholic Clergy abused children.
2. Others in the Catholic hierarchy covered it up.
3. Atheists don't believe in sin.
4. See number 3

You are trying to explain your point of view with supernatural elements involved to an audience who doesn't believe in the supernatural. I can see how this is very frustrating for you. Nobody is intentionally trying to insult you, I just don't agree with what you are saying.

I would like to see you participate in this thread in good faith, but if you continue to put words in my mouth and to Catholic-bait, I will report you to the mods for violation of the TOS.
Have a great day.

Whether or not I participate in this thread is not up to you. This is a public forum. I have not violated the ToS. Please show me anything I have said that insults you personally. I have simply disagreed with you.
This thread could have continued on it's quiet way, with cncracer occasionally posting a news article, and someone occasionally commenting on it. Your presence and attack on cncracer is what has made this thread much more active that it would have been otherwise.

[DreamingSpires]

[
1. I think you are confusing being an apologetic with apologizing.

Nowhere here have I attempted to "argue that Christianity is reasonable." On the contrary, I have been QUITE CLEAR that I am speaking to an Atheistic audience who continues to misrepresent the TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church with the intention of CORRECTING their erroneous assumptions. Pardon me for failing to cop (and you are quite correct, apologetics and apology are distinct terms) that you thought I was attempting to practice "apologetics" within the meaning of your definition.

2. So from your point of view does satan have any responsibility in this matter? My point is from an atheist view of not blaming bad behavior on imaginary characters.

I have no interest in wasting my time explaining Catholic theology to one who has demonstrated repeatedly that they have no interest in learning facts and prefer instead to cling to misconceptions rooted not in fact but in prejudices.

3. Some might call that quote mining. What I actually said was "From the outside looking in, the teachings of the church include lessons in how to hide pedophiles." One might think this because of all the cover up that has been done.

Pure Catholic-baiting.

4. You are trying to explain your point of view with supernatural elements involved to an audience who doesn't believe in the supernatural. I can see how this is very frustrating for you. Nobody is intentionally trying to insult you, I just don't agree with what you are saying.


A person need not believe in the supernatural in order to understand accurately the viewpoint of a religion that does. I do not believe Muhammad is Allah's prophet, but this does not prevent me from understanding accurately the teachings of Islam, even though I reject those teachings, nor does it absolve me of the responsibility to SEEK an accurate understanding, should I lack one.

I don't care whether you "agree or disagree" with me. My ONLY concern is the distortions that are being spread here about the teachings of the Catholic Church -- distortions to which YOU have contributed by distorting MY posts.

5. Whether or not I participate in this thread is not up to you....I have not violated the ToS


What I SAID was that I would report you to the mods for violation of TOS if you persisted with your Catholic-baiting. Obviously, the mods--not you, and not I--will make the final determination whether you have engaged in any violation. This is more an "art" than a "science" and the mods here are quite fair-minded and capable.

6. This thread could have continued on it's quiet way, with cncracer occasionally posting a news article, and someone occasionally commenting on it. Your presence and attack on cncracer is what has made this thread much more active that it would have been otherwise.


So long as CNCRACER continues to misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church, I will continue to call him on it--should I choose to stay around this forum. What you perceive as an "ATTACK" on cncracer I perceive as setting the record straight about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Have a great day.

[cncracer]

I feel sure the real or the perception of the church covering up the pedophile issue comes from documents issued by the catholic church in March of 1962, and up dated in the 90’s. It is a long document but can be found on the web under the name of “THE 1962 VATICAN INSTRUCTION .CRIMEN SOLLICITATIONIS.” It set the procedure and base line for dealing with the pedophile problem, and other problems which the church viewed as putting a bad light on religion or in this case the catholic church. In secular systems it would looks like directions for a cover up.

[albion]

I don't have a problem with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, I have a problem with It's actions, or lack of them. The "Ferns Report" the Irish commission to Inquire into child abuse concluded that:
"The Dublin archdiocese pre-occupation's with cases of child abuse, at least into the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church, & the preservation of its assets.
All other considerations, including the welfare of abused children & justice for the victims, were subordinated to these priorities.
The archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules & did its best to avoid any application of the law of the state."

In 2002 the "John Jay" report tabulated a total of 4,392 priests & deacons in the United States, against whom allegations of sexual abuse were considered by their diocese to have been substantiated.
encrancer said that the catholic church teaches lessons in hiding pedophiles, looking at the Ferns report i'd say he was right.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by albion

I don't have a problem with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, I have a problem with It's actions, or lack of them. The "Ferns Report" the Irish commission to Inquire into child abuse concluded that:
"The Dublin archdiocese pre-occupation's with cases of child abuse, at least into the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church, & the preservation of its assets.
All other considerations, including the welfare of abused children & justice for the victims, were subordinated to these priorities.
The archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules & did its best to avoid any application of the law of the state."

In 2002 the "John Jay" report tabulated a total of 4,392 priests & deacons in the United States, against whom allegations of sexual abuse were considered by their diocese to have been substantiated.
encrancer said that the catholic church teaches lessons in hiding pedophiles, looking at the Ferns report i'd say he was right.

This is exactly the point I have tried to make here -- thank you for citing it.

There is, has been, and unfortunately it appears continues to be CORRUPTION in the Catholic Church at the highest levels. These are the facts.

Any such "lessons" are in flagrant breach of its own teachings.

St. John Chrysostom was no doubt correct when he said (in the Fourth Century, mind you), "The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops."

[cncracer]

The religious section of Europe’s News Papers seems to be filled with nothing but this meeting. It looks like a lot is riding on its outcome.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iEg4-Ln8YRqva_FQUbqCf_ttC4Iw

Pope summons Irish bishops over child abuse scandal
By Gina Doggett (AFP) – 1 day ago
VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI has summoned Irish bishops to the Vatican in February to chart a way forward over a child sex abuse scandal that has shaken Ireland, a spokesman said Wednesday.