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Old 06-22-2009, 10:29 AM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,438,668 times
Reputation: 2506

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I need no more proof, than my search for the Truth in my life.

I have read books, talked to people, joined more than 6 religions. I finally wound up, back on square one. I am convinced not one person knows more than anyone else on earth. The Pope doesn't know more than you or I. No self-proclaimed person knows more. No one who memorized the bible or studied it does. They just accumulated manmade information.

My proof of no god is I was once a Christian. Not in name, but deeply inside. I even had explored other religions before this, and thought I found The Truth. When I prayed, I never asked for money, a nice car, anything superficial, yet, I was told God never answered my prayers because my requests were WRONG. I didn't feel they were wrong. People said I was selfish, that God doesn't always give us what we want. I had some picture of someone holding out a carrot and yanking it away. Why wouldn't a loving Father help us when we need? Yet, the world points to a world where people are tortured, suffer, in need.

And it wasn't that God didn't give me what I wanted. I got no answer. No answer doesn't mean "no", it is simply no answer. God didn't respond to me. I have had some say "Who are you to expect God to answer you?" Well, they why pray? How is that wrong to expect an answer? The thing I always got back from people that it was always wrong to expect any form of communication from God, or to what God's help.

Just continually begging seemed to be a problem. And when I really needed help, it wasn't there. Yet, the couple in church who prayed for a new minivan said their prayers were answered. I couldn't take that. It just seemed so random. No rhyme nor reason. Were these people BETTER people than me?

People said

"God will answer in his own time." But if I throw you the life ring when you're too far from the boat, what good is that?

"God answered you, but you didn't listen." Why wouldn't God answer in a way you could know he was responding. Seems obtuse to me. How was I not listening? I hear everything around me.

"God doesn't give you what you what, he gives you what you need." Then I guess what I prayed for wasn't considered a need. So, why pray, if I am not to determine what is good and decent in my life.

"God never promised us a rose garden." So God promises us pain and suffering. And when we ask for help, we don't get it.

"God helped my sister-in-law when she was sick." Yeah, but what about all of the people who aren't helped and are in hospitals, hospices, and die? What about the people who lose their jobs, their loved ones?

"Well, God has a plan...we just don't know the plan." Oh, God has a plan, but we can't know it, but it includes people being tortured, hurt, suffering, etc. How is that good? So you have to suffer to earn heaven? That's not part of any teaching that you get to go to heaven because you had faith. So where do people get off on saying you have to suffer?

So, God has the power to stop suffering, and he doesn't.

"God can't interfere in the free will of the bad person." But what about the free will of the good person? Why is the victim's free will never paramount???

My proof is that when I had really taken the leap, and when I tried to communicate with God, there was nothing. I had been talking to the ceiling all of those years. Not one word back. Nothing. Yet, if I told Christians about it, they flippantly said they "God talks to me all the time" or "You must be doing something wrong" or "You must have some sin God wont't talk to you then"....jeesh. It's always my fault. The Loving, Forgiving, Wants humans to know Him, God, won't respond.

Contradictions just ate at any belief system I had, until I am now an agnostic.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
163 posts, read 252,747 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
I need no more proof, than my search for the Truth in my life.
I can totally agree! I have to say your post reminded me of something I have experienced numberous times in my life and that is my serenity is inversely porportional to my expectations !
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,438,668 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudwalking View Post
I can totally agree! I have to say your post reminded me of something I have experienced numberous times in my life and that is my serenity is inversely porportional to my expectations !

Thank you, I knew there had to be some serious truth seekers out there.

But I don't think one had any expectations, originally in contacting God.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:04 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,670,057 times
Reputation: 2648
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
I need no more proof, than my search for the Truth in my life.

I have read books, talked to people, joined more than 6 religions. I finally wound up, back on square one. I am convinced not one person knows more than anyone else on earth. The Pope doesn't know more than you or I. No self-proclaimed person knows more. No one who memorized the bible or studied it does. They just accumulated manmade information.

My proof of no god is I was once a Christian. Not in name, but deeply inside. I even had explored other religions before this, and thought I found The Truth. When I prayed, I never asked for money, a nice car, anything superficial, yet, I was told God never answered my prayers because my requests were WRONG. I didn't feel they were wrong. People said I was selfish, that God doesn't always give us what we want. I had some picture of someone holding out a carrot and yanking it away. Why wouldn't a loving Father help us when we need? Yet, the world points to a world where people are tortured, suffer, in need.

And it wasn't that God didn't give me what I wanted. I got no answer. No answer doesn't mean "no", it is simply no answer. God didn't respond to me. I have had some say "Who are you to expect God to answer you?" Well, they why pray? How is that wrong to expect an answer? The thing I always got back from people that it was always wrong to expect any form of communication from God, or to what God's help.

Just continually begging seemed to be a problem. And when I really needed help, it wasn't there. Yet, the couple in church who prayed for a new minivan said their prayers were answered. I couldn't take that. It just seemed so random. No rhyme nor reason. Were these people BETTER people than me?

People said


"God will answer in his own time." But if I throw you the life ring when you're too far from the boat, what good is that?

"God answered you, but you didn't listen." Why wouldn't God answer in a way you could know he was responding. Seems obtuse to me. How was I not listening? I hear everything around me.

"God doesn't give you what you what, he gives you what you need." Then I guess what I prayed for wasn't considered a need. So, why pray, if I am not to determine what is good and decent in my life.

"God never promised us a rose garden." So God promises us pain and suffering. And when we ask for help, we don't get it.

"God helped my sister-in-law when she was sick." Yeah, but what about all of the people who aren't helped and are in hospitals, hospices, and die? What about the people who lose their jobs, their loved ones?

"Well, God has a plan...we just don't know the plan." Oh, God has a plan, but we can't know it, but it includes people being tortured, hurt, suffering, etc. How is that good? So you have to suffer to earn heaven? That's not part of any teaching that you get to go to heaven because you had faith. So where do people get off on saying you have to suffer?

So, God has the power to stop suffering, and he doesn't.

"God can't interfere in the free will of the bad person." But what about the free will of the good person? Why is the victim's free will never paramount???

My proof is that when I had really taken the leap, and when I tried to communicate with God, there was nothing. I had been talking to the ceiling all of those years. Not one word back. Nothing. Yet, if I told Christians about it, they flippantly said they "God talks to me all the time" or "You must be doing something wrong" or "You must have some sin God wont't talk to you then"....jeesh. It's always my fault. The Loving, Forgiving, Wants humans to know Him, God, won't respond.

Contradictions just ate at any belief system I had, until I am now an agnostic.
You claim God won't respond despite an earnest effort on your part to commune with Him, but your post belies that claim. You seldom refer to God's Word, the Bible, or what you've learned through other manifestations of God, or what you've heard from Him when you did believe "deeply inside" that you had "found the Truth" (those are your words; or perhaps you didn't really have such a deep belief inside? ) but instead you constantly refer to what PEOPLE have said. People, the couple in church, Christians, others - I've highlighted how most of your appeals, in your own post, are to people. And then you go on to explain how those various people's responses to you don't satisfy you.

So, it looks to me like your attempts to commune with God were morphed into attempts to get knowledge about God from people and not from God Himself.

Spirituality exists; people know God's presence even if they are not 100% knowledgable about Him. That's why there are so many religions, because spirituality is universal and people seek God. It's also the reason so many religions have problems, despite seeking God; because while they do seek after Truth and God, they are corrupted by the people in them, because people are imperfect and limited.

So, based on your OP, your fact-finding mission re God is not very convincing; you've convinced me that you've been unable to find consistent, rational answers from many PEOPLE, but not from God. You claim you received no answer from God, but it seems to me that you spent more time talking to people and worrying about what they think. You don't get an answer from God, so you seek the advice of people, and then you don't like the answer from people.

I think at this point you're so frustrated you have given up on God and have resigned yourself to simply dismissing his very existence; but I can tell that you, as with many atheists, don't accept this very easily, because here you are discussing it, seeking validation and support in it. And you'll get that here. I've noticed atheists spend a majority of their time seeking and giving approval to and from each other on message forums like this.

But, if you are truly interested in finding God, I would say that since people have let you down in the past, then exclude them from your future endeavors. And that means across the board - don't listen to Christians, but don't listen to any other religionists OR any atheists or agnostics, either. Listen to yourself, seek after God, and see what you learn.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:16 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,438,668 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
You claim God won't respond despite an earnest effort on your part to commune with Him, but your post belies that claim. You seldom refer to God's Word, the Bible, or what you've learned through other manifestations of God, or what you've heard from Him when you did believe "deeply inside" that you had "found the Truth" (those are your words; or perhaps you didn't really have such a deep belief inside? ) but instead you constantly refer to what PEOPLE have said. People, the couple in church, Christians, others - I've highlighted how most of your appeals, in your own post, are to people. And then you go on to explain how those various people's responses to you don't satisfy you.

So, it looks to me like your attempts to commune with God were morphed into attempts to get knowledge about God from people and not from God Himself.

Spirituality exists; people know God's presence even if they are not 100% knowledgable about Him. That's why there are so many religions, because spirituality is universal and people seek God. It's also the reason so many religions have problems, despite seeking God; because while they do seek after Truth and God, they are corrupted by the people in them, because people are imperfect and limited.

So, based on your OP, your fact-finding mission re God is not very convincing; you've convinced me that you've been unable to find consistent, rational answers from many PEOPLE, but not from God. You claim you received no answer from God, but it seems to me that you spent more time talking to people and worrying about what they think. You don't get an answer from God, so you seek the advice of people, and then you don't like the answer from people.

I think at this point you're so frustrated you have given up on God and have resigned yourself to simply dismissing his very existence; but I can tell that you, as with many atheists, don't accept this very easily, because here you are discussing it, seeking validation and support in it. And you'll get that here. I've noticed atheists spend a majority of their time seeking and giving approval to and from each other on message forums like this.

But, if you are truly interested in finding God, I would say that since people have let you down in the past, then exclude them from your future endeavors. And that means across the board - don't listen to Christians, but don't listen to any other religionists OR any atheists or agnostics, either. Listen to yourself, seek after God, and see what you learn.

I guess you got the wrong impression. I didn't place any real value on what others said. I just listed some things as how others perceive not being answered.

You can't say I wasn't serious or sincere. Only I know what my motives were and if I was truly sincere in finding the truth. It's easy to discredit someone by saying they didn't really mean business.

I was not referring to the bible. It is a book vs. having God answer.

I don't care about anyone's approval. Like I stated, no one person knows more than anyone else, so I don't care. When people post, it's "words on a page" and I do not know them personally. I do engage in discussion, but don't care if they approve or not of my viewpoint. I like to discuss things, debate things, but I am not here for approval from people I can't know or ever meet.

IF there was a god, and he wanted me to know him, I would. If God is not reachable by normal forms of communication, then the ball is in his divine court.

you've convinced me that you've been unable to find consistent, rational answers from many PEOPLE, but not from God. This doesn't discredit my search, as you said. But these are the answers many, many people give out, those who claim God does talk to them.

your fact-finding mission re God is not very convincing Again, only I know my own sincerity. My point wasn't to convince anyone of anything, but to engage in discussion. You are the one putting me up on the stand then knocking me down.

You haven't any proof either.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:31 PM
 
7,812 posts, read 10,705,061 times
Reputation: 3443
Reminder:

PLease address the OP, and not one another in sarcastic and/or attacking ways.

When June has to delete THREE-QUARTERS of posts in a thread, it ain't good. Especially when it's only one page long. So:

Please: STAY ON TOPIC.


Thanks!
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:38 PM
 
24 posts, read 30,720 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Reminder:

PLease address the OP, and not one another in sarcastic and/or attacking ways.

When June has to delete THREE-QUARTERS of posts in a thread, it ain't good. Especially when it's only one page long. So:

Please: STAY ON TOPIC.


Thanks!
Im sorry
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,903,118 times
Reputation: 701
Bergen County is wrong....I went through the same thing as you are describing. (except for the multiple religions) You pray and pray and pray...and...nothing. It is very disappointing and frustrating. I had some very serious issues with my family that needed healing. Nothing ever happened. I was told by another CD member here that I was just whining and get over it. I'd understand that if I'd been asking for a sports car or mansion. I hope you find some peace one day....hope I do too!
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,670,057 times
Reputation: 2648
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
I guess you got the wrong impression. I didn't place any real value on what others said. I just listed some things as how others perceive not being answered.
I may have gotten the wrong impression, but if I did, it's because more than half your post you were relating stories about how other people responded to your lack of a response from God and hardly on what you did to seek God. That's just evident in your post, so I think it's logical to reason that you may have sought people's advice more than seeking God or spirituality directly. It seems clear that you interpret your spirituality based in small part on your own experience and in larger part on how others interpret your experiences for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
You can't say I wasn't serious or sincere. Only I know what my motives were and if I was truly sincere in finding the truth. It's easy to discredit someone by saying they didn't really mean business.
I don't doubt your sincerity, but I doubt your method of seeking, as I explained earlier. Sincerity is not at all a guarantee or even an indication of probability that one will follow appropriate actions. If a man wants to buy his wife a great birthday present, he can be as sincere as he wants, but if he seeks information on what he should get her from other people as opposed to seeking that information from his wife herself then his sincerity is betrayed. It could be douted that he was sincere, but that doesn't even matter; his sincerity is betrayed by his methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
I was not referring to the bible. It is a book vs. having God answer.
The Bible is a spiritual book. There are other ones, but you didn't speak muc about any of them. You mentioined having investigated several religions, but you give no indication as to the depth of your investigation. You may sincerely believe you adequately investigated, but it doesn't appear that you did, even if you sincerely believe you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
I don't care about anyone's approval. Like I stated, no one person knows more than anyone else, so I don't care. When people post, it's "words on a page" and I do not know them personally. I do engage in discussion, but don't care if they approve or not of my viewpoint. I like to discuss things, debate things, but I am not here for approval from people I can't know or ever meet.
Then I'm not sure what the point of your post was, since your post is mostly an explanation of why you believe you have "proof" of the non-existence of God and you provide as evidence for that "proof" mostly the responses of other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
IF there was a god, and he wanted me to know him, I would. If God is not reachable by normal forms of communication, then the ball is in his divine court.
Well, that's your decision then. Why would you seek spirituality to begin with if you sincerely believe that communication can not be spiritual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
you've convinced me that you've been unable to find consistent, rational answers from many PEOPLE, but not from God. This doesn't discredit my search, as you said. But these are the answers many, many people give out, those who claim God does talk to them.
Yes, but you focus on those quotes for most of your post, which sends the message that your focus has likely been on the physical interpretations of what should have been spiritual exploration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
your fact-finding mission re God is not very convincing Again, only I know my own sincerity. My point wasn't to convince anyone of anything, but to engage in discussion. You are the one putting me up on the stand then knocking me down.
Well, if you want to open up discussion of your experience, that's going to involve the possibility of someone, like me, not just responding, "Oh, OK, everything you said is 100% true and I agree 100%!!!" I'm discussing, which is what you claim to want, yet because it's not discussion that affirms your message but rather dissents, you label me as "putting [you] up on the stand then knocking [you] down." You put yourself "up on the stand" and I didn't think I was "knocking you down". Do you feel I have knocked you down because I have presented an opposing view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
You haven't any proof either.
I do have proof, but not naturalist/scientific proof. Anyone who knows logic, which is rooted in philosophy, knows that the metaphysical can't be proven with the physical. "Meta" means "above"; "metaphysical" is "above the physical". You can have physical evidence and manifestation of the supernatural, but the laws of the natural are a subset of the laws of the supernatural. As long as people search for natural "proof" of the supernatural, they will naturally (pun intended) be disappointed.
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:15 PM
 
7,812 posts, read 10,705,061 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by ByeByeGod View Post
Im sorry
Now that's ^ a first.


You made June laugh. Out loud.
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