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Old 08-21-2009, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
178 posts, read 183,612 times
Reputation: 38

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Quote:
Originally Posted by justme58 View Post
While I am open to the possibility of a historical Jesus, IMO he was nothing like xianty has made him out to be.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to believe the Bible and what it says. Many highly educated atheists have made a complete turn around after much research. One in particular, C S Lewis, (novelist, academic, medievalist, literary critic, essayist, lay theologian and Christian apologist), started out to debunk Christianity and ended up being one of the most formidable voices for Christ. One of his most famous books is called "Mere Christianity" (which I have read) where he presents many arguments in favor of Jesus being who He claimed He was. Another is Lee Stroble, who also started out to prove that Christianity was false, and his research made him change his mind. He also has written several books, one being "A Case for Christ" and another "A Case for Faith". I've read both and found them to be quite compelling.

A former atheist and hard-bitten journalist with The Chicago Tribune, in 1980 Lee Strobel began an investigation that would alter the course of his life forever. Observing the transformation in his wife following her conversion to Christianity, he began exploring the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the Christian faith. What he discovered eventually led to his own commitment to Christ in 1981.

Recounting the investigation process, Strobel remarks, "Some people are more experiential - they like to experience things - but because I come from a law background, a legal background, and a journalism background, I tend to respond to facts and evidence. My way of processing my spiritual journey was to ask the question 'Is there any evidence that supports Christianity being true?'"


Quote:
How can you desire to be like someone that is mentioned in 4 synoptic gospels that do not even seem to agree with one another?
I don't know what you are talking about - where do you find that the gospels do not agree one with another? They are not identical, no, they are written by 4 different people. Three of them (Matt, Luke and John) were giving their own personal view of their association with Jesus, while Mark, wrote down information received from Peter. Each had a different perspective to write from - but there are no contradictions.

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IMO you are merely taking what you have been taught and connecting the dots of what you have read in the buybull.
Thank you for the vote of confidence - you seem to believe that I am some dumb person that just accepts whatever is thrown at me. Actually, I have spent a lot of years in Bible Studies and research. I base my understanding on the many accounts of others, what do you base your unbelief on?

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Sure Jesus may have been "all good" but so too have been many other folk in history.
Jesus was the personification of goodness, while others have just merely appeared good. Only God is good. But even at that, doing and being good is far better for ourselves and our society than being bad and evil.

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The trinity is a man-made concept circa 400CE with the Nicene creed. Jesus and much of the NT suggest he was no more than the son of god.
The Holy Spirit was introduced in the OT. One time was when Moses was complaining to God because he was overwhelmed with all the demands of the people. Numbers 11:

16 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
.17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


And in the NT - the Trinity is mentioned several times.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19); and in the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."(2 Corinthians 13:14)

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In your opinion. I am sure that much medicine today was not discovered by divine intervention.
God gives men brilliant minds and talents to discover such. That you don't want to give God the credit is your choice.


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Were your gawd so powerful and omni-everything, a simple healing prayer should do the trick and zappo, it should be cured.
He is powerful and omnipresent, but He is not our puppet that we can manipulate. If all that was required for God to do what we wanted Him to do was to say a simple prayer, people would merely use and abuse Him and not come to know Him and love Him. People would remain selfish and bitter, thinking only of themselves.

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Sadly science and medicine realised that this "healing" power of gawd seems to not work.
That is because they choose not to give God the glory for it, but science nor medicine could do much if God did not allow it.
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Yes P&W is correct as you interpreted it. One does not get the position of P&W leader in a church if they think you are not a true xian(tm)
I did but then I came to my senses
We cannot see inside a person's heart, only God. Is it possible that you had the outer attributes of a Christian, but you had not completely believed? Unfortunately, there are many people that fit that description in our churches today. That is why you don't see a "change" in their lives. In my own experience, I can't begin to tell you how much my life has changed.

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Got the tee shirt, been there, done that, know all about that/it geddit?
You might have been there, but I think you missed the whole thing.

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See one of the things that turned me away was when my father died of Alzheimer's after nearly 60 years faithful dedicated service to teh lawd.

So, you are mad at God because your dad served him for 60 years and then God allowed him to die of Alzheimer's? Would it make you feel better to know that your father is with Jesus with all his faculties fully restored. I'm sure that if your father spent 60 years in faithful dedication, he is in the presence of Jesus right this moment not regretting it one bit. His only sadness might be that his illness caused you his loving child, to turn your back on his Jesus. God never promises any of us (his children) a bed of roses on this earth. We all experience all kinds of sadness and problems. What Jesus does promise, is to help us through those times (believe me, He has me), and eternal life in Heaven with Him.

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What was his sin that he had to die such an undignified death?
It is not undignified, it is only undignified because of people here on earth who seem to tag everything according to their views. They look at deformed people as less than perfect, and some illnesses as you describe. God does not see any of us that way.

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Oh and BTW all his brothers had it too and died like muppets in nappies (mostly in homes - I however cared for him till he died).
That is sad for those that loved them, I'm sure, but hopefully they were all like your dad and are at peace with Jesus now. The fact that you cared for your dad till he died is indicative that you do have a caring heart and I think that you might be holding on to some resentment. Jesus is able to change our perspective, so I hope that you might give Him another chance.

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Nope, just wishful thinking
I believe what Jesus said. For me it is not wishful thinking, I am as sure of it as I am that I am going to pass from this earth one day. That is the "Hope" that is spoken of in the Bible.
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Texas
178 posts, read 183,612 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Don't you see the problem here? You only believe people when it coincides with the bible. But people wrote the bible too, so you are only believing people who say what those people who wrote the bible say.
When it comes to spiritual matters, yes, I only believe people that coincide with what the bible says.

Everybody has to rely on other people for their information - certainly you have acquired the knowledge you have, based on other people's knowledge. If someone is telling you something that doesn't coincide with the things you believe, then you don't believe them. Like for instance, you learned the earth was round from your earth science class, and if someone comes along and tells you it is flat, you don't believe them, do you? Same principle.

Quote:
How do you know it was inspired by god?
I believe what the Bible says. It says in the Bible that it written by men that were inspired by God. I believe it.

Second Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" or, as it is translated in the New American Standard Version, "All scripture is inspired by God."

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Not 100% on faith based on my own desire for mythology to be true, no.
On faith based on your own desire for Christianity to not be true?
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You were explaining details of heaven, and said you knew about it because you had the experience.
I don't think I was ever explaining any details of heaven, as I have not been there. I was merely stating what heaven is not - and that is "boring". Based on my knowledge of God and seeing the things that He has created here on earth, anyone can deduct that His creation of our final home for all eternity would have to top what we have here.

The experience I was talking about was Jesus. I have experienced His presence in my life, His miraculous power and His love.

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That's why I asked if you've been to heaven. How does Jesus talk to you? Surely there must be "non-people" sources.
He uses other people, preachers, written material, thoughts, etc. He has many ways of talking to us. Sometimes we miss it because we are not tuned in.

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Ya, but again I don't take things at face value and believe everything people say just because I want to. I don't just trust things that people say, I look into things myself.
And what makes you think that I haven't? Or, that other people that are believers haven't?

Quote:
I guess this would be like you getting "non-people" sources that the bible was true. So again, how does Jesus tell you these things exactly?
And what is your source for believing that the Bible is not true?
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:11 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,023,359 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejoicer View Post
When it comes to spiritual matters, yes, I only believe people that coincide with what the bible says.
This is odd, I thought spirituality was a personal thing.

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Everybody has to rely on other people for their information - certainly you have acquired the knowledge you have, based on other people's knowledge. If someone is telling you something that doesn't coincide with the things you believe, then you don't believe them. Like for instance, you learned the earth was round from your earth science class, and if someone comes along and tells you it is flat, you don't believe them, do you? Same principle.
I don't just "not believe" something that contradicts my beliefs. I reevaluate my beliefs based on any new evidence, and if this new idea holds up to scrutiny, I adopt it into my set of beliefs.

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I believe what the Bible says. It says in the Bible that it written by men that were inspired by God. I believe it.
Circular reasoning.

Why believe the bible?
Because it is inspired by God.
How do you know the bible is inspired by God?
Because the bible says so.

In other words, you believe the bible because the bible tells you it is true, when you have to already believe the bible to use that reason to believe it.

It's like someone claiming something outlandish and ridiculous, but you trust him anyway simply because he says "trust me, I'm not lying."

Quote:
Second Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" or, as it is translated in the New American Standard Version, "All scripture is inspired by God."

On faith based on your own desire for Christianity to not be true?

I don't think I was ever explaining any details of heaven, as I have not been there. I was merely stating what heaven is not - and that is "boring". Based on my knowledge of God and seeing the things that He has created here on earth, anyone can deduct that His creation of our final home for all eternity would have to top what we have here.

The experience I was talking about was Jesus. I have experienced His presence in my life, His miraculous power and His love.
And how are you sure this isn't just you? You never answered when I asked how Jesus tells you these things.

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He uses other people, preachers, written material, thoughts, etc. He has many ways of talking to us. Sometimes we miss it because we are not tuned in.
But there are so many other people that claim other things, for instance the quran. Your only reasoning that the bible is true and the quran is not, is that the bible says it is true. But doesn't the quran say that too?

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And what makes you think that I haven't? Or, that other people that are believers haven't?
OK, what non-biblical sources have you checked the bible against? And don't get trapped into thinking that one historical fact that's true in the bible means all of it is true.

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And what is your source for believing that the Bible is not true?
Well, I read the bible, and much of it is nonsense that could not have come about by a "pure-love" being. That is unless love means condoning and sometimes commanding murder, rape, polygamy, incest, slavery, womanizing, anti-freedom of religion, cruel and unusual punishments like stoning for picking up sticks on the sabbath, etc.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: South Africa
1,317 posts, read 2,052,859 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejoicer View Post
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to believe the Bible and what it says. Many highly educated atheists have made a complete turn around after much research. One in particular, C S Lewis, (novelist, academic, medievalist, literary critic, essayist, lay theologian and Christian apologist), started out to debunk Christianity and ended up being one of the most formidable voices for Christ. One of his most famous books is called "Mere Christianity" (which I have read) where he presents many arguments in favor of Jesus being who He claimed He was. Another is Lee Stroble, who also started out to prove that Christianity was false, and his research made him change his mind. He also has written several books, one being "A Case for Christ" and another "A Case for Faith". I've read both and found them to be quite compelling.

A former atheist and hard-bitten journalist with The Chicago Tribune, in 1980 Lee Strobel began an investigation that would alter the course of his life forever. Observing the transformation in his wife following her conversion to Christianity, he began exploring the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the Christian faith. What he discovered eventually led to his own commitment to Christ in 1981.

Recounting the investigation process, Strobel remarks, "Some people are more experiential - they like to experience things - but because I come from a law background, a legal background, and a journalism background, I tend to respond to facts and evidence. My way of processing my spiritual journey was to ask the question 'Is there any evidence that supports Christianity being true?'"
You make the mistake of assuming I never studied the buybull. It was in fact fervent study that led to my deconversion.

Likewise, theists have deconverted
.
Quote:
I don't know what you are talking about - where do you find that the gospels do not agree one with another? They are not identical, no, they are written by 4 different people. Three of them (Matt, Luke and John) were giving their own personal view of their association with Jesus, while Mark, wrote down information received from Peter. Each had a different perspective to write from - but there are no contradictions.
Uhm, you new here? This has been addressed here ad infinitum and is also on many websites which I know you will not visit so pointless posting them. Your answer is the typical apologetic spin.
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Thank you for the vote of confidence - you seem to believe that I am some dumb person that just accepts whatever is thrown at me. Actually, I have spent a lot of years in Bible Studies and research. I base my understanding on the many accounts of others, what do you base your unbelief on?
Sorry, you have not studied outside of your church's curriculum. If you really research, you will come to the same conclusions many of us here have come to.
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Jesus was the personification of goodness, while others have just merely appeared good. Only God is good. But even at that, doing and being good is far better for ourselves and our society than being bad and evil.
Non sequitur - we do not need myths and fairy tales to be good.
Quote:
The Holy Spirit was introduced in the OT. One time was when Moses was complaining to God because he was overwhelmed with all the demands of the people. Numbers 11:

16 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
.17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.


And in the NT - the Trinity is mentioned several times.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19); and in the Second Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."(2 Corinthians 13:14)
The trinity is a myth but then again much of your buybull is too.
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God gives men brilliant minds and talents to discover such. That you don't want to give God the credit is your choice.
gawd does not exist(.)
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He is powerful and omnipresent, but He is not our puppet that we can manipulate. If all that was required for God to do what we wanted Him to do was to say a simple prayer, people would merely use and abuse Him and not come to know Him and love Him. People would remain selfish and bitter, thinking only of themselves.
That sounds just like you xians. See any atheists attending Benny Hinn healing crusades?
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That is because they choose not to give God the glory for it, but science nor medicine could do much if God did not allow it.
gawd is not real except in the constructs of your own mind.
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We cannot see inside a person's heart, only God. Is it possible that you had the outer attributes of a Christian, but you had not completely believed? Unfortunately, there are many people that fit that description in our churches today. That is why you don't see a "change" in their lives.
What change, change to be like you are? Oh BTW, being P&W leader for 8 years straight one cannot "fool" a congregation that long. Your true Scotsman fallacy still coming through strong here. It is all about power of suggestion and mass hyp(e)nosis, get the folk worked up et al, they teach you these tricks.
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In my own experience, I can't begin to tell you how much my life has changed.
I am happy for you but what happened to you is for you only, you cannot project that onto the rest of humanity.
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You might have been there, but I think you missed the whole thing.
Nope, missed nothing and nothing will get me inside a church again.
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So, you are mad at God because your dad served him for 60 years and then God allowed him to die of Alzheimer's?
How can I be mad at something I no longer believe exists?
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Would it make you feel better to know that your father is with Jesus with all his faculties fully restored. I'm sure that if your father spent 60 years in faithful dedication, he is in the presence of Jesus right this moment not regretting it one bit. His only sadness might be that his illness caused you his loving child, to turn your back on his Jesus. God never promises any of us (his children) a bed of roses on this earth. We all experience all kinds of sadness and problems. What Jesus does promise, is to help us through those times (believe me, He has me), and eternal life in Heaven with Him.
Nope, wishful thinking and soft talk to try empathize, BTW I am over my dads death long ago.
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It is not undignified, it is only undignified because of people here on earth who seem to tag everything according to their views. They look at deformed people as less than perfect, and some illnesses as you describe. God does not see any of us that way.
Right - his imperfect creation is all still good like in Genesis eh?
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That is sad for those that loved them, I'm sure, but hopefully they were all like your dad and are at peace with Jesus now. The fact that you cared for your dad till he died is indicative that you do have a caring heart and I think that you might be holding on to some resentment. Jesus is able to change our perspective, so I hope that you might give Him another chance.
It is up to gawd now, he is not real but if IT is, IT must show me in a real way - you know real evidence.

A caring heart does not require a sky daddy belief, you know many of us A&A's are like that - we just get pissed at you fundies inferring we have no morals w/o your gawd.
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I believe what Jesus said. For me it is not wishful thinking, I am as sure of it as I am that I am going to pass from this earth one day. That is the "Hope" that is spoken of in the Bible.
Nope - still wishful thinking. Once you dead that is it` - fertilizer/worm food or ash

But do not fret - your buybull has a verse to deal with us deconverts, you know the dog returning to its vomit bit, dwell on that a rest assured that you are OK in your delusions and go on your merry way.

Oh and BTW they conned me out of $30k in tithes in less than 3 years (I gave far in excess of 10% and was the single biggest contributor to the church) while my business flourished, why did your gawd allow my business to fail and where have the windows of heaven opening up to bless me gone? According to xian doctrine, he owes me $300k and NO I did not give with a hook, that was their promise and doctrine.

Yup I did acknowledge him in all my ways but because he is not real, it was a one way relationship. The xian koolaide is powerful stuff if you allow it to delude your rational thinking.

There is no hell, there is no heaven, there is no gawd, there is no sawtawn (the correct spelling for adversary in Hebrew)
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
178 posts, read 183,612 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
What about the archaeology that shows the Bible to be wrong?
Archaeologists have made some claims which have later been proven to be wrong and the findings actually coincide with the Bible.

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The book of Daniel is history not prophecy. It was written between 168-164 BCE.
The first six chapters are mainly historical and the remaining six are mainly prophetic.

It is the modern scholars that claim the book of Daniel was written in 168-164 BC.

Naturalists use 165 BCE as the date of authorship for the book of Daniel. Even if we use 165 BCE as the date of authoring Daniel based on Naturalist bias, Daniel's 70-weeks prophecy contains a very accurate forth telling of the Christian faith. Six credible prophecies were fulfilled. Based on the evidence, modern scholars (Naturalists) are biased against the reality of prophecy at the 98.5% confidence level. There are only 14 chance in a 1,000 that this conclusion is not true (due to random error).


Quote:
"The text contains a number of Greek words; yet the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
The dating and authorship of Daniel has become a matter of debate among some Christians. The traditionalist view holds that the work was written by a prophet named Daniel who lived during the sixth century BC, whereas many Biblical scholars maintain that the book was written or redacted in the mid-second century BC and that most of the predictions of the book refer to events that had already occurred. A third viewpoint places the final editorial work in the fourth century BC.

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One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
Q: Was Dan written down in the second century (after Alexander’s conquest), because of the Greek words found in Daniel?
A: No. While the skeptical Asimov’s Guide to the Bible p.597 claims "other subtle facets of the language used bespeak the Greek period rather than the time of Exile", there are only three Greek words in Daniel, which is less than the seven Persian words found. Here is more on these two points.
Only 3 Greek words are in Daniel (Daniel 3:5,10,15), and all three of them refer to musical instruments. 735 Baffling Bible Questions Answered p.193 says that this does not show second century authorship, as Assyrian inscriptions say Greek captives were in Mesopotamia in the 8th century B.C. In addition, in the 7th century, the Greek Alcaeus of Lebos mentions that his brother was serving in the Babylonian army. Likewise The Expositor’s Bible Commentary volume 1 p.247 also says that these formerly were thought to indicate a late date. However, "There is little doubt that the names of the instruments in Daniel were Old Persian in character, and were assimilated by the Greeks into their own culture with some orthographic modifications. Consequently this particular argument is no longer important for the literary criticism of Daniel"
7 Persian words are in Daniel referring to administration (Daniel 6:1-4,6-7). As 735 Baffling Bible Questions Answered p.193 says, "…Daniel’s correct use of these words simply cannot be explained if the author were an unknown second -century writer unfamiliar with the details of Persian government three hundred years before his time."

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Daniel 1:4 refers to the "Chaldeans" as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
Q: In Dan 2:2-10; 4:7; 5:7,11, does calling the priests Chaldeans show a later authorship, as some the skeptical Asimov’s Guide to the Bible p.601 maintains?
A: No. Gleason Archer has an extensive article in Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.285-286 discussing this.
1. Daniel uses the Hebrew term, Kasdim, not only to refer to priests, but also the Chaldean (Babylonian) people in Daniel 5:30. If using it to refer to priests showed a late authorship, then Daniel 5:30 would show an early authorship.
2. However, using this in two ways shows this was written around Daniel’s time. The Akkadian language, which Babylonians in Daniel’s time spoke, used the same word Kal-du (from the Sumerian Gal-du to refer to both the priests and the nation. A table dated in the 14th year of Shamash-shumukin (668-648 B.C.) uses Gal-du for the priests. Archer says the Babylonians prior to the fall of Assyria used Gas’du for the Chaldean people. After the fall of Assyria, they changed the consonant "s" in many words to the consonant "l".
3. The Greeks, who knew of the Babylonians long before Daniel was born, called the nation Chaldaioi.
See also When Critics Ask p.293 for more info.

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About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including "Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;" 2 Daniel is not mentioned - presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
Q: Was Dan written after Sirach, since Sirach 47-49 contains a fairly exhaustive list of the Old Testament, omitting Daniel, as Asimov’s Guide to the Bible p.623 says?
A: The time of the Maccabees was until about 165 B.C. However, four pieces of evidence are against this second century theory.
1. In the Apocrypha, 1 Maccabees 2:49-60 mentions Daniel and the three young men in such a way to imply that the book was already written by then. Otherwise, how would the readers of 1 Maccabees be expected to understand Daniel and the three young men? See 1001 Bible Questions Answered p.367 for more info on this.
2. Archaeologists have dated a copy of the manuscript of Daniel at 120 B.C. The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.436-438 mentions this, saying that this "brings into question the alleged Maccabean date of its composition."
3. Babylonian excavations show that the details of Daniel are correct. M. Lenormant says, "The more the knowledge of cuneiform texts advances, the more is felt the necessity to revise (correct) the too hasty condemnation of the book of Daniel by the German exegetical school" (La Magie p.14) (quoted from 1001 Bible Questions Answered p.367)
4. Also the reference in Josephus already mentioned in the previous question.

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Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
Again - has to do with when the book was actually written.

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Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to "the abominable thing that causes desolation." This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
Q: In Dan 11:31, what was the abomination that causes desolation?
A: This prophecy had both a foreshadowing under Antiochus Epiphanes and a fulfillment that is future to us.
Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the Temple. He entered the Holy of Holies, and according to one account put a pig’s head there.
According to Hippolytus’ Fragment 2 from his Commentaries (p.184) (225-235/6 A.D.) Daniel’s abomination of desolation occurs during the endtimes when the Antichrist comes.
See 735 Baffling Bible Questions Answered p.198 for more info.

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Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Palestine, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Palestine where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164."[/b][/i]
Again, it is naturalists that claim the book was written during that time.
THE BOOK OF DANIEL IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT)
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Texas
178 posts, read 183,612 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by justme58 View Post
You make the mistake of assuming I never studied the buybull. It was in fact fervent study that led to my deconversion.
Studying the bible alone does not a Christian make. If you don't believe, reading the Bible does not amount to much.

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Likewise, theists have deconverted
.
You thought you were a Christian, but I seriously doubt that you were, based on your comments.

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Uhm, you new here? This has been addressed here ad infinitum and is also on many websites which I know you will not visit so pointless posting them. Your answer is the typical apologetic spin.
I have read the gospels, and studied them, there is no contradiction.

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Sorry, you have not studied outside of your church's curriculum. If you really research, you will come to the same conclusions many of us here have come to.
I seriously doubt it.
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Non sequitur - we do not need myths and fairy tales to be good.
Acting like you are good and being good - two different things. Outside of Christ you are just following Satan.

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The trinity is a myth but then again much of your buybull is too.
gawd does not exist(.)
And that is on your authority?
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That sounds just like you xians. See any atheists attending Benny Hinn healing crusades?
gawd is not real except in the constructs of your own mind.
If that is what you believe, I'm sure nothing I say will change your mind, but you are not the final word.
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What change, change to be like you are?
Oh no, I'm not the role model, Jesus is.
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Oh BTW, being P&W leader for 8 years straight one cannot "fool" a congregation that long.
The congregation cannot see your heart. I'm sure the true believers believed you were sincere, but God is not fooled.

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Your true Scotsman fallacy still coming through strong here. It is all about power of suggestion and mass hyp(e)nosis, get the folk worked up et al, they teach you these tricks.
You don't know anything about my faith and style of worship, so your comments reek of anger and hate. So you quit believing - why do you hate those that still do?

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I am happy for you but what happened to you is for you only, you cannot project that onto the rest of humanity.
I'm not projecting anything on you. You asked questions, I answered them. Even though we are commanded to go and make disciples of everyone, we are not told to force it down their throats. God gave you "free will" and you have a right to exercise it.

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Nope, missed nothing and nothing will get me inside a church again.
Your loss.
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How can I be mad at something I no longer believe exists?
That doesn't mean He doesn't exist, just because you choose not to believe.

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Nope, wishful thinking and soft talk to try empathize, BTW I am over my dads death long ago.
Sorry that you can't even accept sincere empathy. I'm glad you are over your dad's death - I'm sure he isn't over your death, if he was a believer.

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Right - his imperfect creation is all still good like in Genesis eh?
It is up to gawd now, he is not real but if IT is, IT must show me in a real way - you know real evidence.
The evidence is all around you. That you fail or refuse to see it is your own doing.

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A caring heart does not require a sky daddy belief, you know many of us A&A's are like that - we just get pissed at you fundies inferring we have no morals w/o your gawd.
I never said that, did I? You might be the most moral person in the world but you are still not going to heaven.
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Nope - still wishful thinking. Once you dead that is it` - fertilizer/worm food or ash
You will remember your words when you realize the truth - but it will be too late. There are no atheists in hell.

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But do not fret - your buybull has a verse to deal with us deconverts, you know the dog returning to its vomit bit, dwell on that a rest assured that you are OK in your delusions and go on your merry way.
I believe you are the one in delusion.

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Oh and BTW they conned me out of $30k in tithes in less than 3 years (I gave far in excess of 10% and was the single biggest contributor to the church) while my business flourished, why did your gawd allow my business to fail and where have the windows of heaven opening up to bless me gone? According to xian doctrine, he owes me $300k and NO I did not give with a hook, that was their promise and doctrine.
Your very attitude denotes that you have never known Christ. I don't know of any church that cons people out of anything. Giving is not mandatory - it is between a person and God. That you feel you were conned out of the money is another indication that you never knew Jesus. And if you don't believe in God, why do you blame him for your business failing?

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Yup I did acknowledge him in all my ways but because he is not real, it was a one way relationship. The xian koolaide is powerful stuff if you allow it to delude your rational thinking.
You have allowed Satan's koolaide to delude your rational thinking. Sad.

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There is no hell, there is no heaven, there is no gawd, there is no sawtawn (the correct spelling for adversary in Hebrew)
Go on believing that, one day you are going to find out you were wrong. Hopefully it will be before it is too late. Have a nice life. I enjoyed talking to you even if you seem to have some sort of resentment toward me without even knowing me.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
178 posts, read 183,612 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
This is odd, I thought spirituality was a personal thing.
I don't understand your statement. People discuss spiritual matters. There are false teachers and they may seem to be real until they start talking and their talk doesn't match what the Bible says.

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I don't just "not believe" something that contradicts my beliefs. I reevaluate my beliefs based on any new evidence, and if this new idea holds up to scrutiny, I adopt it into my set of beliefs.
What makes you think I don't. If what they say makes sense, I try to research what Bible scholars have to say about the matter before I decide whether or not to change my own belief. You are taking what I say and building your own opinion around it.

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Circular reasoning.

Why believe the bible?
Because it is inspired by God.
How do you know the bible is inspired by God?
Because the bible says so.
You are taking a couple of statements and building a whole lot of nonsense out of it.

I believe the Bible because a lot of things in the Bible have been proven true. Since I believe the Bible, I accept what it says as truth. It says that God inspired the authors of the books, and I believe it. Nothing circular about it except in your own reasoning.

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In other words, you believe the bible because the bible tells you it is true, when you have to already believe the bible to use that reason to believe it
.

No, you are putting words in my mouth. I believe the Bible is true after I have read and studied it. The writers of the Bible claim that what they are writing is true - it is up to a person reading it or studying it whether they believe them or not. I happen to believe them, you don't, what is so hard to understand about that?

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It's like someone claiming something outlandish and ridiculous, but you trust him anyway simply because he says "trust me, I'm not lying."
To you it may be outlandish and ridiculous, but if you were to seriously study it you might not say that. Most people that don't believe the Bible have never even read it.

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And how are you sure this isn't just you? You never answered when I asked how Jesus tells you these things.
I did too, go back and read the post again - but I'll tell you again. Jesus talks to believers in many ways. Through a sermon (preachers), through other people, through circumstances, through the Bible, through thoughts.

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But there are so many other people that claim other things, for instance the quran. Your only reasoning that the bible is true and the quran is not, is that the bible says it is true. But doesn't the quran say that too?
People can claim many things. Just like you are claiming the Bible is not true. I have a choice in what I believe and what I don't. Your claiming that my only reasoning that the Bible is true and the quran is not is that the Bible says it is true, is your own assumption. Like I said before, I have read and studied the Bible, I have decided that it is true. If you want to believe the Quran, you have every right to do so.

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OK, what non-biblical sources have you checked the bible against? And don't get trapped into thinking that one historical fact that's true in the bible means all of it is true.
Why don't you tell me what non-biblical sources you have checked the Bible against.

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Well, I read the bible, and much of it is nonsense that could not have come about by a "pure-love" being. That is unless love means condoning and sometimes commanding murder, rape, polygamy, incest, slavery, womanizing, anti-freedom of religion, cruel and unusual punishments like stoning for picking up sticks on the sabbath, etc.
Where did God command any of those things. Apparently you haven't read the Bible. People did those things, just like they do today. They are not commanded by God to do so, so your statement is bogus.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejoicer View Post
He is powerful and omnipresent, but He is not our puppet that we can manipulate.
If your god is what you claim he is, he wouldn't need to be asked. He would WANT to do it.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:50 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,023,359 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejoicer View Post
I don't understand your statement. People discuss spiritual matters. There are false teachers and they may seem to be real until they start talking and their talk doesn't match what the Bible says.
But the writers of the bible are part of that group of people who say things that you have to just believe on faith. You are cherry-picking the bible over other teachings, and why? because the bible says so. But the bible was written by people who said so. So you believe because people told you, essentially.

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What makes you think I don't. If what they say makes sense, I try to research what Bible scholars have to say about the matter before I decide whether or not to change my own belief. You are taking what I say and building your own opinion around it.

You are taking a couple of statements and building a whole lot of nonsense out of it.

I believe the Bible because a lot of things in the Bible have been proven true. Since I believe the Bible, I accept what it says as truth. It says that God inspired the authors of the books, and I believe it. Nothing circular about it except in your own reasoning.
A few things in the bible coincide with historical evidence. But a lot of it does not. But yet you think that those couple of things that are historically accurate prove the whole bible to be true? Homer's Odyssey has a lot of historical fact, but you don't believe in the mythological creatures too do you?

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No, you are putting words in my mouth. I believe the Bible is true after I have read and studied it. The writers of the Bible claim that what they are writing is true - it is up to a person reading it or studying it whether they believe them or not. I happen to believe them, you don't, what is so hard to understand about that?

To you it may be outlandish and ridiculous, but if you were to seriously study it you might not say that. Most people that don't believe the Bible have never even read it.
I have read it, and much of it is ridiculous and absurd. Have you read the old testament?

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I did too, go back and read the post again - but I'll tell you again. Jesus talks to believers in many ways. Through a sermon (preachers), through other people, through circumstances, through the Bible, through thoughts.
Oh ok, through other people who aren't god. I see. Thanks for proving my point.

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People can claim many things. Just like you are claiming the Bible is not true. I have a choice in what I believe and what I don't. Your claiming that my only reasoning that the Bible is true and the quran is not is that the Bible says it is true, is your own assumption. Like I said before, I have read and studied the Bible, I have decided that it is true. If you want to believe the Quran, you have every right to do so.
I don't believe either, I am just showing how it is hypocritical to believe one thing just because it says it is true, and not believe another thing that also says it is true.

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Why don't you tell me what non-biblical sources you have checked the Bible against.

Where did God command any of those things. Apparently you haven't read the Bible. People did those things, just like they do today. They are not commanded by God to do so, so your statement is bogus.
So you don't believe Moses did everything in accordance with what God commanded? How about the other prophets and god's-chosen in the old testament? What about when Jesus said it was better for a slave to obey its abusive master than rebel, or that women have no right to have an open opinion about religion?
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Old 08-22-2009, 12:55 AM
 
Location: South Africa
1,317 posts, read 2,052,859 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejoicer View Post
Studying the bible alone does not a Christian make. If you don't believe, reading the Bible does not amount to much.
Oh I was a believer, you just cannot wrap your mind around the fact that theists deconvert because of your inerrant buybull.
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You thought you were a Christian, but I seriously doubt that you were, based on your comments.
Still playing the no true Scotsman fallacy eh? It does not work with us heathen.
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I have read the gospels, and studied them, there is no contradiction.
I am not going to waste my time, maybe Arequipa has the list of inconsistencies handy. Hence you have only connected the dots on what you WANT to believe or what you were coerced into believing.
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I seriously doubt it.
Bart Ehrman, a professor and chair of religious studies at university of North Carolina at Chapel hill, is a deconvert. I suppose a biblical scholar of these proportions is not a true christian(tm) either?
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Acting like you are good and being good - two different things. Outside of Christ you are just following Satan.
How can I follow another mythical biblical creation I do not believe in? Geez I thought maybe you were somewhat intelligent but with quips like this it shows your ignorance quite profoundly. BTW the word satan is transliterated from the Hebrew word sawtan or sawtawn. You claim to have studied, look it up in a concordance. Here I will do it for you, see us heathen still read your buybull only to debate and defeat you theists.
1Ch 21:1 And Satan(7584) stood up against Israel and provoked David to take a census of Israel.

H7854
שׂטן
śâṭân saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

H7853
שׂטן
śâṭan saw-tan'
A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.
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And that is on your authority?
Nope ever read Shema Yisrael? Goes in depth to all the claims you triangular folk make.
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If that is what you believe, I'm sure nothing I say will change your mind, but you are not the final word.
Neither are you or your buybull
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Oh no, I'm not the role model, Jesus is.
Back to my previous argument, you base everything on a few texts and expect this to be it for all? Well the irony is that most xians do not demonstrate christlike characteristics, nothing changes, you all stay the same but now that you have said a sinner's prayer and imagined an epiphany, you now get a free pass to do as you please no matter who you step on? Yes broad brush but 7000 miles away, reading on the internets, you xians are all the same deluded, self righteous bigots the world over. There are of course exceptions to the rule but you do not come across as one.
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The congregation cannot see your heart. I'm sure the true believers believed you were sincere, but God is not fooled.
So speaking in tongues, prophesy and interpretations were all a hoax by me? BTW I can still invoke tongues if I so choose, why is that seeing I have now rejected everything christian?

I could go back to church and prophesy within a month based on what I know of the buybull and they will all be fooled. There is no holy spook, the anointing is self willed goosebumps, s#1t I get the same anointing when I urinate after holding it in a long time.
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You don't know anything about my faith and style of worship, so your comments reek of anger and hate. So you quit believing - why do you hate those that still do?
Look which forum you are in, don't expect respect when you are breaking one of the pertinent rules of this sub forum.

No I do not know anything about you yet in the same light you have been able to make multiple assumptions about me? Et tu.

However as I stated earlier, you come across just like the pious I knew in church, and I did not just attend one church.
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I'm not projecting anything on you. You asked questions, I answered them. Even though we are commanded to go and make disciples of everyone, we are not told to force it down their throats. God gave you "free will" and you have a right to exercise it.
Aah the free-will argument? Care to cite a biblical passage that supports that dogma?

I promise you, you do not want to do rounds with me on a free-will debate, I have never lost one yet. There is no such thing as free-will.
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Your loss.
Nope, I lost nothing in a church of crazies
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That doesn't mean He doesn't exist, just because you choose not to believe.
Wow, I am supposed to prove that your gawd does not exist? That I am afraid is your call to prove he/she/IT exists.
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Sorry that you can't even accept sincere empathy. I'm glad you are over your dad's death - I'm sure he isn't over your death, if he was a believer.
Sincere empathy like what you offered is the rhetoric all xians offer in the event of death untimely or as in the case of my dad at the age of 81. Interesting that you now question my dad's beliefs, S#1t you are a piece of work aren't you?

I have no reason to lie to you, I am not pushing any snake oil.
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The evidence is all around you. That you fail or refuse to see it is your own doing.
So you're a pantheist then? Uhm, just what evidence are you referring to?
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I never said that, did I? You might be the most moral person in the world but you are still not going to heaven.
Not in this thread, but I will be watching you, just a matter of time before you play that card. There is no heaven, why aspire to something that is not real?

ETA:

Actually you have stated we have no morals, just earlier you implied I am following satan

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Acting like you are good and being good - two different things. Outside of Christ you are just following Satan.
I think that qualifies as an ad homenium or implication that we atheists have no morals.
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You will remember your words when you realize the truth - but it will be too late. There are no atheists in hell.
My standard rebuttal


[/quote]I believe you are the one in delusion. [quote]No I live in the world of reality not myths like you do.
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Your very attitude denotes that you have never known Christ.
So you are free to judge and I am not? Interesting how you xians eventually all produce the same fruit is it not?
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I don't know of any church that cons people out of anything. Giving is not mandatory - it is between a person and God.
That is why it is a con, I just did not see it at the time
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That you feel you were conned out of the money is another indication that you never knew Jesus. And if you don't believe in God, why do you blame him for your business failing?
I specifically stated your gawd. You have failed here on so many levels, you hoist the no true Scotsman flag and dance under it all the while I am trying to show you that I was as xian as the next person in church. By your premise, no one in that church is a true xian(tm)
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You have allowed Satan's koolaide to delude your rational thinking. Sad.
Uhm, koolaide is a xian exclusive thing. I have already addressed the satan issue, I am not a satanist as to be that I would have to believe in your gawd and buybull too.

Maybe you should go and play with your fellow xians in the xian forum, you are not doing too well here.
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Go on believing that, one day you are going to find out you were wrong. Hopefully it will be before it is too late.

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Have a nice life. I enjoyed talking to you even if you seem to have some sort of resentment toward me without even knowing me.
Ditto - you do seem to have all the answers but as all theists inevitably end up doing, they deflect to ad hominums when they have no answers.

You want to get in my face, expect the same in kind

Last edited by justme58; 08-22-2009 at 02:23 AM..
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