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Old 08-16-2009, 12:19 AM
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Default Why I Am Not An Atheist

From the title of this thread, you're probably thinking this a hostile Christian takeover of this sub-forum. But as I've mentioned quite a few times before, I'm an agnostic. And the real purpose of this thread is to outline the ideological difference that separates agnosticism from atheism. Like the other threads I've started on this message board, the arguments I pose here are a condensed version of an article I wrote on my website. If you're interested, here's the link: http://www.kideh.com/article5.php.

If you do get the chance to read it, you'll find that I'm pretty critical of atheists. But I'd like to make it clear that I'm making general criticisms, and not a personal attack directed at any of the atheists members here. I've encountered a lot of very friendly atheists on this sub-forum; and if you guys were the only atheists I knew of, then I'd never complain about atheism.

Anyways, back to why I'm not an atheist. I'm not an atheist for the same reason why I'm not a Christian, and for the same reason why atheists aren't Christians. Atheists reject Christianity because there's no evidence supporting Christianity, and I reject atheism because there's no evidence supporting atheism.

That may sound like an extreme statement to make; but so is the statement that “no deities of any kind exists”, which is atheism's fundamental belief.

What kind of evidence could you possibly provide that would support the assertion that no deities exist? Evolution doesn't support that assertion, because the only assertion that evolution supports is that life forms evolve. The Big Bang doesn't support atheism either. Because the only assertion that the Big Bang supports is that the Big Bang occurred.

And philosophical arguments against the existence of God suffer from the same problem. The omnipotence paradox can never hope to accomplish anything more than proving that God isn't omnipotent. That in itself wouldn't prove that God doesn't exist. And the problem of evil can never hope to accomplish anything more than proving that God isn't omnibenevolent. And that's not good enough either if you want to disprove the existence of God.

Of course, none of this is a reason to actually believe in God. After all, there isn't any evidence that God does exist either. The point I want make is that you can't ever hope to reach any firm conclusions when you argue on the subject of whether or not God exists. Therefore, it's impossible for Christians to convince atheists that God exists using sound logic. And it's also impossible for atheists to convince Christians that God doesn't exist using sound logic. We simply lack the evidence to reach a firm conclusion of any kind.

The only productive debates that non-theists can have with Christians is regarding real-world issues. For example, we can use evidence, and logical arguments to convincingly argue why intelligent design shouldn't be taught in science classes. That debate is relevant to the physical universe. And since we humans capable of coming to firm conclusions regarding the physical universe, we're also capable of coming to firm conclusions on the creationism vs. evolution debate. In these types of debates, I'm always glad when atheists step in, because they're far more likely to pick the right side than the average Christian.

The only time I have a problem with atheists is when they step out of the real world, and into the spirit realm. In matters of spirituality, nothing can be known for certain, and that includes the assertion that the spirit realm doesn't exist. So part of the reason why I object when atheists enter into the debate over whether God exists is that it's a waste of time.

An even bigger objection I have is that atheists always argue their position with a level of self-assurance that is unjustified, and out of line with the quality of their arguments. Any attempt at logically justifying certainty that God doesn't exist is bound to break down. And so, pro-atheist arguments always break down. And when atheists use these arguments to justify their beliefs, and insist that everyone has to agree with them or else they're not “rational”, then that causes atheism to lose credibility. And since the general public equates atheists with agnostics: that also causes agnostics like myself to lose credibility.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kid EH View Post
...and I reject atheism because there's no evidence supporting atheism.
I've always been under the impression that atheism isn't something involving evidence that supports a belief system. An atheist is simply one who does not believe that supernatural deities exist. That doesn't mean that I go around claiming that there is definitely no God, it just means that I don't believe there is. I have no problem admitting that it's possible, but I personally think it's very, very unlikely that anything of the sort does exist. An example is the "What happens to man after death?" thread. The religious members were claiming xyz happens as if they know this for a proven fact, which is impossible to know. Many atheist members were saying that nothing happens, we just rot in the ground. Well technically we don't know for a fact that nothing happens after death, just as we don't know that something happens. What we have physical proof of is a body decomposing after death, so we know for certain that that is a fact. Anything else, negative or positive, is really just speculation. Yet many on both sides seemed to be claiming inside knowledge, as if it they had experienced it themselves.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
I've always been under the impression that atheism isn't something involving evidence that supports a belief system. An atheist is simply one who does not believe that supernatural deities exist. That doesn't mean that I go around claiming that there is definitely no God, it just means that I don't believe there is. I have no problem admitting that it's possible, but I personally think it's very, very unlikely that anything of the sort does exist. An example is the "What happens to man after death?" thread. The religious members were claiming xyz happens as if they know this for a proven fact, which is impossible to know. Many atheist members were saying that nothing happens, we just rot in the ground. Well technically we don't know for a fact that nothing happens after death, just as we don't know that something happens. What we have physical proof of is a body decomposing after death, so we know for certain that that is a fact. Anything else, negative or positive, is really just speculation. Yet many on both sides seemed to be claiming inside knowledge, as if it they had experienced it themselves.

Based on that description you'd technically be an agnostic.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:54 AM
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Based on that description you'd technically be an agnostic.
I agree, but I also think of the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", one of the two must be unnecessary. An atheist is one who doesn't believe in a supernatural god. An agnostic is one who says there's no way for us to know for sure that there's no god(s). Well, that's a given, so it seems the term "agnostic" shouldn't really be something different than "atheist", unless the agnostic does believe in God(s), in which case there are a myriad of other titles one could use instead.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:58 AM
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My definition of atheism is this: I do not believe in any God, ghost, zombie, or Elvis reincarnations until I see undeniable proof. If that ever happens, I'm perfectly willing to change by beliefs.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:31 AM
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To the OP:

You are an atheist yourself, because all it means is that you do not have any theistic beliefs. Atheism is not always saying "I know for a fact that no gods exist." What you are arguing against is "strong atheism". Lamplight had it right saying that agnosticism is believing that we can't know. There are agnostic atheists ("we can't know and I'm withholding belief") and agnostic theists ("we can't know but I choose to believe anyway").
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
I've always been under the impression that atheism isn't something involving evidence that supports a belief system. An atheist is simply one who does not believe that supernatural deities exist. That doesn't mean that I go around claiming that there is definitely no God, it just means that I don't believe there is. I have no problem admitting that it's possible, but I personally think it's very, very unlikely that anything of the sort does exist.
I agree with what kdbrich wrote. Your approach fits my definition of an agnostic. In fact, your beliefs about God are practically identical to mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
I agree, but I also think of the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", one of the two must be unnecessary. An atheist is one who doesn't believe in a supernatural god. An agnostic is one who says there's no way for us to know for sure that there's no god(s). Well, that's a given, so it seems the term "agnostic" shouldn't really be something different than "atheist", unless the agnostic does believe in God(s), in which case there are a myriad of other titles one could use instead.
It seems obvious to you and me that there's no way to know for sure that there are no gods. But it might not be obvious to everyone. Regardless, there are people who won't admit even the remote possiblity that God exists, and so there is a need to make a distinction between atheists and agnostics.

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To the OP:

You are an atheist yourself, because all it means is that you do not have any theistic beliefs. Atheism is not always saying "I know for a fact that no gods exist." What you are arguing against is "strong atheism". Lamplight had it right saying that agnosticism is believing that we can't know. There are agnostic atheists ("we can't know and I'm withholding belief") and agnostic theists ("we can't know but I choose to believe anyway").
I'm familiar with the terms "strong atheism" and "weak atheism". But they seem overly contrived to me. Atheism and agnosticism were distinct concepts for over a hundred years before the terms strong and weak atheism were invented. Going by the traditional definitions of atheism and agnosticism: a strong atheist is a true atheist, while a weak atheist is kinda/sorta an atheist. "Weak atheism" sounds to me like a weak distinction to make.

And weak atheists would traditionally be called agnostics. For once, I think the traditional way of doing things is best.

But you are correct if we go by the definitions you use. I would be considered a weak atheist, and I would be objecting to strong atheism. Or more specifically, outspoken strong atheists who try to strong-arm people of other faiths.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:13 AM
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Anyways, back to why I'm not an atheist. I'm not an atheist for the same reason why I'm not a Christian, and for the same reason why atheists aren't Christians. Atheists reject Christianity because there's no evidence supporting Christianity, and I reject atheism because there's no evidence supporting atheism.
Considering there have been no visits or messages from any gods or deities to date, I'd say that alone tilts the scale of evidence a bit in favor of atheism/agnosticism (agnosticism is a level of atheism)

You are correct of course that there is NO evidence supporting Christianity. There is in fact plenty of evidence against.


Quote:
What kind of evidence could you possibly provide that would support the assertion that no deities exist? Evolution doesn't support that assertion, because the only assertion that evolution supports is that life forms evolve. The Big Bang doesn't support atheism either. Because the only assertion that the Big Bang supports is that the Big Bang occurred.
True, however it is not atheists who associate evolution and the big bang with atheism, it is theists - mainly Christians and Muslims. Atheists accept the two (scientific) theories simply because they are supported by all the available evidence, and because atheists in general are more highly educated than Christians.


Quote:
Of course, none of this is a reason to actually believe in God. After all, there isn't any evidence that God does exist either. The point I want make is that you can't ever hope to reach any firm conclusions when you argue on the subject of whether or not God exists. Therefore, it's impossible for Christians to convince atheists that God exists using sound logic. And it's also impossible for atheists to convince Christians that God doesn't exist using sound logic. We simply lack the evidence to reach a firm conclusion of any kind.
God does not belong to Christianity. While it is not unreasonable to contemplate the possibility that there may well be a logical and rational "supreme being" we humans might call "GOD", no rational person could/should ever be convinced that the Biblical/Christian god exists any more than they could be convinced of Zeus, Thor or Santa Clause's existance. The absurdity level is simply too high for such a being to exist.

Not to mention the historical evidence that the Bible and its god are clearly hand me downs adapted from the mythologies of earlier civilizations.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:43 AM
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Smile Ahem (well, you did ask the question in the OP...)

Let's try this on for size. Sorry for the length; I promise to be more brief if i respond later.

There's an infinite number of imaginable ways to explain our existance, our self-aware consciousness, here on Earth. It's that self-awareness part that seems to get humans into so much of a quandry. It seems unlikely to me that it all just happened for no particular reason. Ditto for Christians. We just come to different conclusions about how. Or why.

As you say, there's no particularly conclusive evidence to absolutely explain any it. Yet. We have some predictions, some true theories, and as theories sometimes do, especially the better ones, they usually predict some measurable outcomes. Logical, yes?

I mean, if we suspect that a camera flash unit is present and operational behind a solid wall, (i.e.: we can't see it, but we think it is there) and we think that it's capable of making flashes of light when we press the remote button, well OK then. Could be other things, other sources, though, right? It could be a "flash-god" for example.

Especially if there's a large, noisy group of "flash-god'ers" over there, chanting loudly to drown your question out, and wanting to burn you at the stake for even asking any further questions!

But, we can predict that if it is the flash unit, we would see a flash specifically when, and only when, we press the remote. We could also predict that the flash is the source because of the scientifically measurable type (spectrum) of light that we know that flash unit produces, and no other type of light. We could also measure the flash duration, which we predict is the same as the specs on the supposed flash unit.

All these measurable and observed and accurately documented light events are examined, and we can reasonably conclude that there is, with a high level of confidence, a flah unit behind the screen, but we don't KNOW for sure.

So. Of all the near-endless possibilites as to the formation for, rationale behind, and existance of, our Universe, scientists have made some non-supernatural predictions (i.e.: that do not require a supernatural source), or an imaginary God. Of course theists can wilfully concoct a near-endless variety in their imaginations of alternate godly versions of our initial creation. Especially, they like the one about a white-bearded guy who made us in His image. Especially when so much power and political influence and prime real-estate are at stake!

But then, there's those pesky scientific predictions. You know, that if it was formed as we atheist-scientists think it might have been, why then we'd expect to see certain key byproducts, certain event horizons [love that phrase!], certain traces of elements, long-decayed but residual radioactivity, certain radio-frequency energies that we can detect even on our am radios or TVs [go to an unused TV channel; the "snow" you see is, predictably, the ancient radiomagnetic traces of the Big Bang.].

Ditto for the many, many, ohhhh so very many other aspects of the relentless and ongoing examination of our world, our universe. Most of them predicted by our theories that if there was a Universe-starting Big Bang of the base element(s) we suspect (hydrogen, mostly), we'd see this or that. And guess what?

Scientific examination has pretty much found exactly what they predict. How interesting, huh?

So, back to our basic discussion. No, we do not have conclusive proof of an event as we describe it. WE probably never will. We may, however chance upon some equations or some determinable process that does inexorably point it's well-lit finger directly at a Big-Bang event, or something else that is quite extra-ordinary. And, additionally, what we have found so far surely points clearly away from a supernatural occurrence. Who needs one anyways? Why?

Humans as we know them today may never evolve the necessary "brainial" IQ to even speculate or understand what might, in fact, already be laying right here under our noses. As I'm fond of pointing out, it's like my trying to explain the theory behind my DVD player to my favorite, quite bright cat, Dottie The Wonder Cat. She'll just never get it, frankly! And yet there it is, a working DVD player! And it's not automatically supernatural. There are other ratnioal possibilities!

On the other side of the argument that boils over relentlessly here on C-D's R&P fora, there is absolutely no substantive evidence, no observable, empirical predictions that have been brought to the table, ever, in favor of any of the near-uncountable mythical, supernaturally produced, coyote- or raven-god, or Christian god, or Muslim god or Chinese dragon gods. Or even our favorite, the Flying Spaghetti Monster god. FSM for short, BTW.

Why then should we even concentrate any residual energy on trying to fit our well-measured square observation results into a specific round receptacle hole, called Christianity? That's their tactic and strategy; to dismiss the problem observations, and pound the others into shape; their pre-determined shape, certainly not reality.

Why should we focus on that particular deity, or any diety for that matter? Where's the logic for that expenditure of precious time and energy?

We are no longer bound by the massive encumberances of the ancient uneducated age of superstition. Look at the biblical translations; rife with descriptions that match the intellect and scientific understandings of the time. They could not have even begun to describe the rapid oxidation of a chemical in the presence of air, to produce heat and light (i.e.: FIRE).

They looked up in fear, and assumed the universe revolved around the Earth precisely because they assumed we were motionless, and surely the sun was not. I mean, just look up! There it is, moving, and we're not! Proof!

So. It's not a simple case of decisions between only two polar opposites. We have the painstaking and logical design of ever-more precise measurement systems, followed by multiple observations by a growing multitude of independant rational well-trained observers. This is followed by a careful interpretation, via tools of statistics, direct measurment or deduced observation (remember our flash unit?). We see if they might fit sorta-kinda, or perhaps exactly, against our predictions.

We then come to reasonable conclusions, and we always state the resonable limitations of our study design, and of our conclusions, and the larger implications. So, we narrow down the possibilities. In many cases, the conclusions exactly fit our theories, and it explains some long-hidden quandry, and we move on.

Against this, why should we be forced into accepting only one alternate supernatural theory? Why is it a "this or that" model we must allow?

It's because the dogmatic and persistant religious types want to be able to dismiss our version, and show it as the only other alternative, leaving, some very poorly designed "default" position. Which, of course, is, conveniently, their's.

Finally (At last! He's finishing up!), why limit ourselves to only the two diametrically opposing views? An atheist is not limited in this way at all. He simply looks at the godly versions: coyote, raven, totem pole, YahWeh, Mohammed, or whom/whatever. And he looks at the scant and now disproven evidence for those options, knowing there may be others, but these certainly don't fit the observations.

He's also not blind to the increasingly desperate attempts by fundy Christians to "defend the indefensible"; their foot-stamping insistence that the universe does, in fact, revolve around a flat earth, that we Insta-Poofed into existance long after, for example, the Chinese historians documented our presence. That vegan T-rexs were saddled up and ridden by their happy human masters as recently as 2000 years ago, despite that there's no left-over evidence, and it's obviously patently foolish anyhow. And that any other version should NEVER be taught in schools.

Such stuff is not convincing to the rational and educated person, a category to which atheists are commonly attached.

He's likely also read some of the research summaries that show at least partial but positive evidence for a more empirical, more naturalistic world view, and he likes the logic and rationality of this version, so he simply dismisses the "nonsense" of Christianity, as he sees it, and moves on.

Get it? Why limit ourselves artificially, when there's so much to see, to learn, to appreciate under the warm illumination of the truth!

Last edited by rifleman; 08-16-2009 at 03:26 AM..
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:09 AM
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I consider myself "Atheist" for now, because after I divorced myself from religion and christian philosophy/dogma; I couldn't think of a better word. While most people around here would equate the two; I didn't want to start calling myself the more accurate "anti-christ."
I might consider deism, but my religion really is about "that which I can possibly know - everything else is speculation." As for how this universe and all of it's inhabitants came about, well, it's interesting but it's all speculation. Whether things happened more like the scientists concur, or more like the religious creationists believe, I don't care. It doesn't affect my belief (or the lack thereof) one bit. Yes, I lean closer to the scientists, but having come from monkeys, pond scum or kittens wouldn't say one thing or another about the alleged, oft written about god. Well, it's time for bed. Robert
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