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Old 11-07-2009, 04:18 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I have done loads of investigating into the subject and everything that I said is the absolute truth. It's you who obviously have a problem with anyone who would dare call this so called theory bunk. It insults everything that you believe in and have faith in and to reject it stirs up the anger in you. It's very difficult to have the "Faintest clue" about evolution as the theory is so fluid and changes constantly to accomodate new discoveries that disprove it. Many atheists reject it because it's so absurd, unfounded, and just plain wrong by any observed facts that are there for all to see.
What you have found by investigating is, at best, misrepresented or perhaps, misunderstood.

As has been posted earlier, there was a massive amount of support for evolution before the discovery of DNA and that has added much more. The missing link thing as represented by you is a strawman.
I can't blame you too much for that as it is a rather popular 'fairy tale' that everything must add up in a nice unbroken genealogical list. It doesn't do that and understandably some with a particular agenda for discrediting evolution have siezed on this. Nevertheless, the overall weight of evidence for microevolution (accepted even by anti-evolutionists) having been the mechanism for all the changes shown in the fossil record, plus all the supplememtary evidence from DNA should be enough to give evolution the benefit of doubt, don't you think? Especially as there is hardly a crumb of evidence to support any of the other theories.

The theory is not fluid and does not change constantly, any more than our knowledge of the the stars and planets is fluid and changes constantly just because of the cinstant new discoveries. It is still the same system since Darwin, just as the planetary is still the same system since Galileo - and evolution never had to counter anything like geocentricity. All the evidence adds to the theory rather than disproves it and you'd know that if you had really researched the matter in any even - handed way.

You do yourself no credit by denouncing anyone who points out the evident weakness of your understanding of the facts of the matter as well as this absurd lie that many atheists reject evolution. I haven't ever come across one. Because the facts that support evolution are so overwhelming that the only persons who really have a problem with it are theists who feel that it somehow threatens their faith.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:06 AM
 
46,944 posts, read 25,972,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Proofs are completely lacking and so therefore the ones who have a vested interest in the theory make some up so as not to be completely discredited.
So what is your explanation for endogenous retroviruses? I'm sure some here would love to hear it.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:13 AM
 
46,944 posts, read 25,972,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkingpinl View Post
Current Creation scientists.
<Laundry list removed>
That's, like, 150 names? Here's a link to a list of 1118 scientists who support the ToE. Oh, and they're all named "Steve", just to make it harder.

The List of Steves | NCSE
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,421 posts, read 6,502,064 times
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Haha
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,456,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I have done loads of investigating into the subject and everything that I said is the absolute truth. It's you who obviously have a problem with anyone who would dare call this so called theory bunk. It insults everything that you believe in and have faith in and to reject it stirs up the anger in you. It's very difficult to have the "Faintest clue" about evolution as the theory is so fluid and changes constantly to accomodate new discoveries that disprove it. Many atheists reject it because it's so absurd, unfounded, and just plain wrong by any observed facts that are there for all to see.
Well, perhaps over the course of your long-tenured investigatory procedures you might have learned that we do have your so called "links" sitting very nicely on the shelf - hundreds of them, in fact. Of course, due to your exemplary understanding of the subject at hand, you probably also realize that none of these "links" actually describe the theory of evolution {sarcasm mine}. Rather, I'm sure that an amphibious-like fish with four legs, gills, fish scales, tetrapod rib bones, a 'mobile' tetrapod neck, tetrapod lungs, fins instead of toes, is not a "link" but rather a very amusing creature that has merely been looked upon as a "link" but in all actuality is probably thought to have died when Noah forgot to pick him up before National Lampoon's Great Water Park Adventure.

Certainly, with your astounding and marvelous digestion of the theory of evolution, you'd also understand the predictive power of the theory of evolution in how the above fossil (as merely one example) was found. There's no doubt in my mind that you already know from your diligent research that the above fossil has a name so I should probably not waste my time in revealing it to you *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* - but I'm sure you already knew that. Naturally, the discovery of *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* was not just sheer accident but actually predicted by empirical scientific examination.

Let me put it this way... Remember in the Bible when Jesus told everyone he'd be back to sprinkle happiness and joy all across Smurfland? Well, that was kind of like a prediction. Of course, it's been two thousand years and Smurfland hasn't been graced with his presence but it's kind of a prediction nonetheless. Thus far, all evidence points to it being a not-so accurate prediction (but I'll give it to them - those Christians are a patient bunch).

Of course, the power of prediction the theory of evolution has had has actually been far more fruitful and revealing. You see, prior to the discovery of creatures like Tiktaalik there were predictions that such a creature would be dug up. These predictions were initially held by Mr. Charles Darwin himself (certainly not one to claim to come back to Smurfland and sprinkle happiness and joy on all those who believed him) but further propagated by the scientific community as more and more evidence stacked up in his favor.

You see, once the "DNA-Triangulation" method became available, it actually became possible for us to look at the DNA "source code" of individual creatures and find out how long ago they branched from another relative creature. In other words, scientists were able to look at the DNA of modern day tetrapods and modern day fish and make a prediction that the two must have had a common ancestor way back whence. In other words, with any luck there should have been a creature in the fossil record that had both tetrapod features as well as fish-like features. Of course, because of the sensitivity of the fossil record, whatever fossils might have existed to prove this true could very well have been damaged or never fossilized. However, for such a sea-land creature, fossilization probably had better odds due to the muddy and mucky environment it presumably lived in. You probably know all of this from your in-depth studies but I'm just reviewing it for educational purposes.

The next thing these magical scientists with their Magic 8 Balls (8 Balls meaning the scientific predictive power not the measurement of the grainy white powder you've obviously been snorting) needed to decide upon was which sedimentary layer of rock to look for this *cough* Tiktaalik *cough*. In order to do that, they had to look at where the first tetrapods showed up in the fossil record and where all the lobe-finned fish stood in the fossil record. The difference between the two should have been the approximate age in which *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* would be found. For reference, and I'm sure you already know this from your enormous research, the first tetrapods appeared roughly 363 million years ago and the last lobe-bearing fish (of that time) were around 380 million years ago. Thus, this "transitional" should be found in a layer of rock dated between 363 and 380 million years ago. Keep in mind, all this is being done with magic crystals and reading tea leaves so it makes it that much more empirical.

At first, the search didn't reveal much. I mean, it's pretty hard to have been pointed to a certain section of rock by magical power crystals and tea leaves to find such a creature. It took quite a few years, if I recall correctly. In fact, a lot of hope was diminished simply because of the fear that those fossils were simply gone by this point. Then, like Jesus riding a horse through the clouds, the prediction was met and *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* was found. The examination of *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* revealed precisely what researchers had predicted - a fish-like, tetrapod-like, "transitional" found in a layer of rock dated between 363 and 380-million years ago. This was even better than Jesus riding a horse through the clouds because it actually came true.

Certainly, you know the story of *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* because of your vast research but it's one that always reminds me of the wonderful predictive power of scientific theories when they're actually true and accurate. An accurate scientific theory is a lot like a magical incantation when you think about. It shows the ability to predict the future and what better way to accurately assess a theory than by someone to have actually predicted it would happen? After all, if Jesus came riding a horse through the clouds (watch out for the horseturds below- such as your previous post), I'd say that'd be some pretty awesome predictive power. Nonetheless, at least within 150 years we've been able to dig up hundreds of specimens just like *cough* Tiktaalik *cough* to prove the theory of evolution while still accurately predicting more and more fossils yet to be dug up out of the ground. There's a lot more to be said for that than a two-thousand year old religious masturbatory fantasy that has yet to occur. But, alas, you've probably thought about all of that when you were doing your extensive and qualitative research.

Last edited by GCSTroop; 11-07-2009 at 11:40 AM..
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,574,700 times
Reputation: 9030
Contrary to what you may think the discovery of DNA and it's structure was the death knell for the theory of evolution. The theory went well there was this primordial soup and we don't know how but out of this soup came a very SIMPLE form of life,blah blah blah. Well the discovery of DNA distroyed this idea because it showed that all life even single celled organisms are Extremely complex. And how did this primordial lifeform reproduce it's self I may ask. It has been mathamatically figured out using the most up to date mathamatical methods that the chance of a single simple protein being spontaniously created from a soup of chemicals is one in, and the number is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. So lightning flashed and low and behold not only one simple protein was formed but an entire chain of complex ones organized in such a way as to be the most complex structure in existence appears. You know why you are so sarcastic and insulting? It's because your blind faith in a hoax is being illustrated and you have absolutely no comeback because there isn't one. I predict that in a very few years no one will believe in this fairy tale. It's a insult to the intelligence of a rational being.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:50 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,421 posts, read 6,502,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Contrary to what you may think the discovery of DNA and it's structure was the death knell for the theory of evolution. The theory went well there was this primordial soup and we don't know how but out of this soup came a very SIMPLE form of life,blah blah blah. Well the discovery of DNA distroyed this idea because it showed that all life even single celled organisms are Extremely complex. And how did this primordial lifeform reproduce it's self I may ask. It has been mathamatically figured out using the most up to date mathamatical methods that the chance of a single simple protein being spontaniously created from a soup of chemicals is one in, and the number is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. So lightning flashed and low and behold not only one simple protein was formed but an entire chain of complex ones organized in such a way as to be the most complex structure in existence appears. You know why you are so sarcastic and insulting? It's because your blind faith in a hoax is being illustrated and you have absolutely no comeback because there isn't one. I predict that in a very few years no one will believe in this fairy tale. It's a insult to the intelligence of a rational being.
Ok, lets assume for the sake of argument that it all started some other way. That's not critical to the theory of evolution. What other part of evolution do you not believe?

1. Do you believe that animals breed and pass on their DNA to their progeny?
2. Do you believe that differential breeding, (whether intentional or accidental) can cause changes in a species DNA over time?
3. If you believe in 1 and 2, isn't the natural consequencece of that evolution?
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,527 posts, read 37,128,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Contrary to what you may think the discovery of DNA and it's structure was the death knell for the theory of evolution. The theory went well there was this primordial soup and we don't know how but out of this soup came a very SIMPLE form of life,blah blah blah. Well the discovery of DNA distroyed this idea because it showed that all life even single celled organisms are Extremely complex. And how did this primordial lifeform reproduce it's self I may ask. It has been mathamatically figured out using the most up to date mathamatical methods that the chance of a single simple protein being spontaniously created from a soup of chemicals is one in, and the number is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. So lightning flashed and low and behold not only one simple protein was formed but an entire chain of complex ones organized in such a way as to be the most complex structure in existence appears. You know why you are so sarcastic and insulting? It's because your blind faith in a hoax is being illustrated and you have absolutely no comeback because there isn't one. I predict that in a very few years no one will believe in this fairy tale. It's a insult to the intelligence of a rational being.
So since you don't believe in creation or evolution, tell us how you think life came about.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,574,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
So since you don't believe in creation or evolution, tell us how you think life came about.
I did not take a position on the issue. If you go back and read my first post on this thread I stated that I was talking about the validity of evolution and nothing else. What I believe about the origin of things has nothing to do with Darwin's theory.
Don't put words in my mouth either. I did not say that I don't believe in creation but if I do or don't it's not relavent to why I don't believe in Evolution.
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,574,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Ok, lets assume for the sake of argument that it all started some other way. That's not critical to the theory of evolution. What other part of evolution do you not believe?

1. Do you believe that animals breed and pass on their DNA to their progeny?
2. Do you believe that differential breeding, (whether intentional or accidental) can cause changes in a species DNA over time?
3. If you believe in 1 and 2, isn't the natural consequencece of that evolution?
The answer to 1 is yes.
The answer to 2 is no.
It has never been shown that any new species of animal has ever come about by the modification of their DNA because of genetic differences between the parents. If that was the case we surely would have people who have changed into different species. Many people confuse adaptation with evolution and most life forms have the ability to adapt to different conditions which leads to different types but the same species.
When I worked way up in the north of Manitoba it was the best habitat for black bears in the world. It's extremely cold there though. Now we know that a larger animal has an advantage over smaller ones in cold climates because the rate of heat loss is so much less as the ratio of surface area to volume is exponential and not linear. The large bears there were 900 pounds. A really big black bear in the south of the USA is 400 pounds. They are both still black bears. They could breed together and produce black bears. There DNA would be the DNA of black bears.
Do you know what species of mammal has the largest difference between individuals in the world? It's dogs. A 3 pound Yorky has the same dog DNA as a 300 pound Mastiff. You could breed them and still get a dog. I think it would have to be Artificial insemination though LOL. When you breed animals with different DNA what do you get if you get anything? Horse and Donkey, you get a mule but a mule is not a species. It's sterile.
So my answer to 3 is NO it's not evolution.
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