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Old 12-11-2011, 01:20 AM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,097,381 times
Reputation: 5219

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Perceived effects of acupuncture are, argues the NCAHF, probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion and other psychological mechanisms.
Most likely. I tried to go into it with an open mind as an experiment, but not being a True Believer, I came away with nothing. (I hope the Chinese version of Tinker Bell didn't cease existing on my account.)
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:01 AM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
See what I mean? You offer no evidence for your claims and simply engage in name calling as a substitute. You just proved everything I said in post #44 better than if you had given me your password and let me write your own post for you.

The evidence for my position? I cited a study and a source.
The use of terminology from human studies redefined to try to imply that the same mechanism can operate in animals without our cognitive abilities is not evidence . . . it is animal lovers' propaganda. There is no counterpart to placebo effect within the animal kingdom, period.
Quote:
The evidence for YOUR position? You simply repeat your claim as if repeating it often enough proves it.
Evidence 1 Repetition 0.
For one thing . . . it is an art and not all who claim to be acupuncturists are competent. The control and variability in providers is nowhere near that among conventional medical doctors or veterinarians. Still . . . my daughter's aging Doberman had severe hip dysplasia and Rimadyl was no longer effective. His hindquarters were severely impaired. The acupuncture treatments produced amazing results. His hindquarters functioned normally (almost like a young pup's) and were maintained that way with treatments twice a month. There is NO WAY a placebo effect could produce such a dramatic change in physical capability and mobility. Believe what you will. Their explanations for what they are doing may be total bullsh*t . . . but if they are competent . . . it definitely works for pain.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:19 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,344,365 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no counterpart to placebo effect within the animal kingdom, period.
Again I cited a study to the contrary. You just cite your own opinion. I will go with citation over opinion any day thanks.

Here is a list of reading material for you, though I imagine no amount of reading material or citation can surmount the dogmatically help opinion of MysticNoPhD once your mind is made up. Citation be damned, when you think you are right you are right no matter what anyone else says on the matter.

McMillan, FD. The Placebo Effect in Animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999; 215(7): 992-9.

Pavlov, IP. Conditioned Reflexes. London: Oxford Press, 1927. 23–78.
Voudouris, NJ, Peck, CL, Coleman, G. Conditioned placebo responses. J Pers Soc Psychol 1985; 48: 47-53.

Gantt, WH, Newton, JO, Royer, FL, et al. Effect of person. Conditional Reflex 1966; 1: 18-35.

Lynch, B. Heart rate changes in the horse to human contact. Psychophysiology 1974; 11: 472-478.

Newton, JF, Ehrlich, WW. Coronary blood flow in dogs: effect of person. Conditional Reflex 1966; 1: 81.

Gross, WB. The benefits of tender loving care. Int J Stud Anim Prob 1980; 1: 147-149.

Heinsworth, PH, Brand, A, Willems, PJ. The behavioral response of sows to the presence of human beings and their productivity. Livestock Prod Sci 1981; 8: 67-74.

Wilson, DV, Berney, CE, Peroni, DL, et al. The effects of a single acupuncture treatment in horses with severe recurrent airway obstruction. Equine Vet J 2004; 36(6): 489-94.

Controlled clinical trial of the effect of a homoeopathic nosode on the somatic
cell counts in the milk of clinically normal dairy cows. M. A. Holmes, P. D. Cockcroft, C. E. Booth, M. F. Heath

Behaviorally conditioned immunosuppression R Ader and N Cohen

Read also about the "Clever Hans Effect."

Read further the Bed Goldacre piece on how sniffer dogs gave false positive detections when their handlers believed drugs were present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
it is an art and not all who claim to be acupuncturists are competent.
This is a pre-cop out also used in religion. I have often heard when people say they can not find god then this is not because there is no god, but because they are not praying right, or looking hard enough or Christian enough or something.

Essentially what you are doing is explaining away the massive volume of failures to show that acupuncture actually does anything by suggesting that the cases where it does nothing is down to the competence of the practitioner.

Declaring this allows you then to do what people in all areas of quack medicine do from acupuncture to homeopathy.... disregard the negative research and use only the positive. If you get a positive result - yay you were right all along. If you get negative results - oh well the people doing it must just have been doing it wrong.

This kind of confirmation bias and desperation is exactly what things like double blind clinical trials were created to weed out and guess what.... double blind clinical trials do not show acupuncture or things like homeopathy to be effective. quelle surprise.

The evidence on THIS thread? Your one... unverifiable... possible made up... independently inaccessible.... anecdote.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:24 AM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again I cited a study to the contrary. You just cite your own opinion. I will go with citation over opinion any day thanks.
I like you Nozz . . . you remind me of my arrogant self 40+ years ago before my encounter in deep mediation. I cannot argue with someone who is willing to believe that animals have the same cognitive capacities as humans. It is a fruitless endeavor. There are many such people who have a specific agenda to provide evidence for that very view by changing the definitions of cognition and the phenomena associated with it. We will never agree about it. No animal has the unique cognitive capacities of a human being, period. Redefine all they may . . . they cannot equate us. We are animal so we have their capacities . . . but we have capacities they cannot remotely have. Your certainty about the materiality (or is it physicality now?) of our reality as measured by our feeble instruments and senses blinds you to the greater reality that exists (and is still natural . . . NOT supernatural). Supernatural is a fake word to isolate and denigrate those aspects of our reality that we cannot currently measure or explain, period. Peace.

PS. You will have to spend a significant number of years to catch up to my reading list, Nozz . . . so save your snide commentaries for when you grow up.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:26 AM
 
6,034 posts, read 10,652,271 times
Reputation: 3989
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
Actually, I did get really ill... and western science had little to offer to me that was genuinely effective. People who talk like you do about acupuncture have never tried it. This is another example of something western science doesn't understand being dismissed because it would challenge the materialistic paradigm.
I've tried acupuncture and it didn't do sh*t for me. Same for reiki.
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:52 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,344,365 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I like you Nozz . . . you remind me of my arrogant self 40+ years ago
So first when I give citation you counter with just opinion.

When I give more citation you counter with insult.

Same ole same ole for you isnt it? You will be using straw man next.... Oh wait....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I cannot argue with someone who is willing to believe that animals have the same cognitive capacities as humans.
.... you just did. I never claimed any such thing. Suggesting similarities and common phenomenon is NOT the same as saying they are the same. This straw man from you is as ridiculous as me saying that both humans and hawks have eyes and you replying "So you think humans have the same sight capabilities as hawks". Pointing out similarlties is not the same as saying they are identical.

Insult. Opinion. Straw man. I will stick to citations of actual studies, not insult, opinion and straw man. Thanks anyway. And those citations show that placebo effects are indeed observed in animals, contrary to your citation free and baseless opinion. A fact that is not going to be changed by sticking your fingers in your ears and telling everyone to "grow up". I am sorry if the facts get in the way of your precious opinions, but that is your problem not mine.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:26 AM
 
8 posts, read 14,529 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by DT113876 View Post
No, that would not be lying, beacuse lying involves intentionally saying something untrue for the purposes of deception. If you believe you can read the next card in a deck of cards, that is not lying. Perhaps delusional, but not lying. You need to stop ascribing malicious intent to people who are sincere in their beliefs. The majority of religious people and clergy are not con-men or duped.
Thanks for mentioning that, but the original author's point still makes more sense. Because, one can intentionally deceive one's self. I would call ignorance of contrary evidence lying. Even if you "believe" fully, you are in control over your beliefs. Probably.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:34 AM
 
8 posts, read 14,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post

Oh, and there numerous scientific studies that have found acupuncture to be no more effective than placebo. So, does it help? Yes, at the same rate a placebo procedure helps. It doesn't appear to have any active ingredient above and beyond eliciting the body and brain's natural way of healing and reducing pain, which can also be elicited equally as well using a placebo. And as we all know some diseases and disorders respond well to placebo and others don't.

Hi, Just chiming in here...

Your statement doesn't make sense to me. Not sure if you're telling us correctly but it sounds like you are saying another placebo procedure had the same results. So they were both an improvement over nothing? Helped what? What did it help?

Reasoning like that is going to be a real problem for Westerners. I probably would have said I think acupuncture works for some ailments until you posted this, now I just think it's garbage.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,883,238 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggity0169 View Post
Hi, Just chiming in here...

Your statement doesn't make sense to me. Not sure if you're telling us correctly but it sounds like you are saying another placebo procedure had the same results. So they were both an improvement over nothing? Helped what? What did it help?

Reasoning like that is going to be a real problem for Westerners. I probably would have said I think acupuncture works for some ailments until you posted this, now I just think it's garbage.
Some people falsely assume that if a study finds that a treatment is no better than placebo, then those receiving the treatment reported no improvement in their symptoms.

Allow me to illustrate. Twelve people with severe chronic headaches sign up to participate in a study testing the effectiveness of an experimental drug, X. Before the experiment, they all rate the severity of their symptoms as a 9 out of 10. Four of them are given a pill containing X, four of them are given a sugar pill (placebo) that looks just like X, and four of them receive no treatment at all. The eight people who received a pill don't know whether they received the actual drug or the placebo.

The results come in. Those who received no treatment rate their symptoms as 9 out of 10. Those who received X, reported an improvement in their symptoms with a rating of 6 out of 10. But, those who received the placebo also reported an improvement in their symptoms with a rating of 6 out of 10. So, X performed no better than placebo (a sugar pill).

What caused the symptom relief in the people who were given a placebo, remember they were given no active drug? It was the belief that they were taking something that would make them feel better, that caused them to feel better. The belief alone activated their bodies natural pain killers. We understand how that works. If you want to know more, study psychoneuroimmunology.

Since, the people given X reported that they received the same level of symptom relief as those given placebo, we can't rule out that their improvement too was due to belief. We can't say that the drug itself actually does anything to physically reduce symptoms above and beyond what pure belief that one is doing something that will help causes.

Pain responds very well to placebo. Other things like heart disease, doesn't respond that well to placebo.

Hopefully, all of that makes sense. So, patients on acupuncture do experience some symptom relief depending on the ailment, but the symptom relief is no greater than that achieved by placebo, which produces the belief that one is doing something that will help you get better.
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:20 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
.... you just did. I never claimed any such thing. Suggesting similarities and common phenomenon is NOT the same as saying they are the same. This straw man from you is as ridiculous as me saying that both humans and hawks have eyes and you replying "So you think humans have the same sight capabilities as hawks". Pointing out similarlties is not the same as saying they are identical.
But saying that a phenomenon that is known to exist in humans because of our unique cognitive ability (placebo effect) exists in animals that do NOT have that cognitive ability is bogus science. It requires a false redefinition of placebo effect to adapt it to diminished animal capabilities. THAT is NOT comparable!
Quote:
And those citations show that placebo effects are indeed observed in animals, contrary to your citation free and baseless opinion.
No they do NOT . . . because they have redefined the effect to conform to diminished animal capabilities without changing the name. Whatever effect they THINK they are measuring is NOT a placebo effect. A lack of understanding of scientific rigor is no excuse for accepting such hogwash uncritically.
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