Pascal's Wager (meaning, Buddhism, Christian, choice)

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

If the Evangelical Christians are correct and faith is required for "salvation", then I am not sure that such a god would honor the believe "just in case" type of faith as it doesn't seem to be a true faith as evangelicals define it.

Good point, however faith alone is not sufficent for salvation.

If that were true, then when Jesus was repeatedly asked what one must do to have eternal life, his answer would have been "you must have faith in me."

Yet, Jesus never once says that faith is a component of salvation.

When asked what is necessary to gain eternal life, Jesus said:

1) You must sell everthing you have and give it to the poor; and
2) You must eat my flesh and drink my blood; and
3) You must be like a child; and
4) You must be born again; and
5) You must give away everything you have; and
6) You must keep the commandments; and
7) You must love your neighbor; and
8) You must hate everyone, including your parents, family and yourself; and

9) Your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees, which means you have to comply with all 613 laws of the Mitzvot.

I know people often point to John 3:16, but that is what John says, as Jesus never said anything like that.

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Wow, that's harsh! I used to push the Pascal's Wager thing even before I knew what it was......believe just because you can and should sort of thing. I am a Christian who has had a change in heart and mind as of late....I'm thrilled in the knowledge that everyone will be reconciled to God eventually anyway so your disbelief has no bearing in this life or the next. Now THAT is good news!!

Why do you say it is harsh, merely because it does not support your beliefs? Gee that is kinda harsh in itself, and quite closed minded. Doesn't your cult also say that judgment is left only to your deity, yet you judge me then state you are a christian.

Picture yourself in the position of a primitive man crouched in the dark with absolute no concept of why we have night and day, listening to the predators of the night as they hunt and see what solution your fears may drive to invent.

Fear invented all the deities, and fear allows them to control those that refuse to reason like puppets.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

With the knowledge we have today to believe in these deity things is just so laughable, and pathetic at the same time. I don't blame the early man sitting alone in the dark, but I do have a lot of contempt for today's deity worshipers in their infinitely stubborn ignorance. They believe their deity gave them there brain, but apparently the missed the part where they were supposed to actually use it for something other than keeping their ears separated.

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Wow, that's harsh! I used to push the Pascal's Wager thing even before I knew what it was......believe just because you can and should sort of thing. I am a Christian who has had a change in heart and mind as of late....I'm thrilled in the knowledge that everyone will be reconciled to God eventually anyway so your disbelief has no bearing in this life or the next. Now THAT is good news!!

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

Why do you say it is harsh, merely because it does not support your beliefs? Gee that is kinda harsh in itself, and quite closed minded. Doesn't your cult also say that judgment is left only to your deity, yet you judge me then state you are a christian.

It is harsh because your rhetoric was harsh . . . a-la-the bolded phrases in the first post. I encounter far too many partially-educated buffoons who prove the adage . . . "a little knowledge . . ." They also apparently missed the part where they were supposed to actually use their brains for something other than keeping their ears separated.

[jojajn]

Originally Posted by Dub D

Pascal's wager: Definition from Answers.com



I use to consider myself Agnostic but as I become a bit older, I have become a big fan of this theory. Probably because I like gambling alot so this is a better bet than being Atheist. I don't really see the harm in this idealogy either. So with that being said, I now consider myself a Deist.

To those who are Atheist, why not follow this?

I can't understand how lying to yourself out of fear would be considered faith.

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by jojajn

I can't understand how lying to yourself out of fear would be considered faith.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.-Friedrich Nietzsche

[catman]

Haaziq: Great quotation!

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Nea1

I am not going to believe to be on the safe side ( if that is what it is stating), that would be dishonest and if their is a god, he would know it.

Quite so, unless of course this God is too busy or can't actually manage all that input simultaneously (absent MAGIC). So then perhaps He just takes us initially on our word of honor, and then sorts it out in heaven later.

"The following have been carefully judged on this, their first week here in heaven, and must report immediately for the bus to hell. J. R. Smith. H. Williams. Jerry Falwell. " etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Fullback32

Hmmm, to believe "just in case"... If the Evangelical Christians are correct (which I of course do not believe they are), and faith is required for "salvation", then I am not sure that such a god would honor the believe "just in case" type of faith as it doesn't seem to be a true faith as evangelicals define it.

I'll buy into the all-knowing, all-seeing version if He is real. In which case, as you say, He'll be taking mental notes as we speak, and with his holographic memory, He never forgets! You think you can bluff your way in with false beliefs, just to be safe? Hah!

I'm betting He values us skeptics and thinkers rather than the parrot-hood congregation.

Originally Posted by Mr5150

Not to worry. When we die we'll find out who is right.

Oh blah blah blah. Threats as a basis for religion? Hee hee.. You bet we will find out, if we could, be we won't, so no point. I'd rather live for here and now, be the best and most ethical and honest person I can be, rather than put it all off on the shady promise of an implausible afterlife. All of it just to enrich the Church through fear and lies. If I'm right, you get to lose BIG TIME.

Originally Posted by Dub D

I don't believe in any particular religion. As the wager states, I believe there is a god because it makes the most sense to believe there is one. I really do not see the downside. I don't really understand how you can say god doesn't existance when you can't prove god does. I'm just using logic like I'm playing Texas Hold Em'.

I don't think so, Dub D. Actually, it makes no sense at all to waste precious mental and physical time on a belief system based, in essence, on nothing but fear and the promise of some later undefined reward if you're a good boy or girl today. The total absence of any good evidence for your particular Godly entity since the year ≈ 100AD does little to encourage large-scale belief in this day of ample evidence that He clearly doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

I have and USE the ability to think, and it is so blatantly clear that there is no bet. No deity things, heaven/hell, etc. These are so clearly the inventions of people trying to understand things that they simply did not have the ability to understand yet.

(snipped for brevity)

With the knowledge we have today to believe in these deity things is just so laughable, and pathetic at the same time.

Quite so.

Originally Posted by BoomBoxing

The problem is that you only propose two possibilities when there are near infinite possibilities. For example, (snipped for brevity: too many good examples: read the original...)

Pascal's Wager gives you about the same odds as playing the lottery.

Yes, but all of those possibilities have no good basis in historic fact. No.. Wait.....

Originally Posted by Aeroman

I do think man though up spirits an gods sitting around the fire.

Maybe when pre-humans that were still living in the tree had scared little minds.
But by the time stone age humans lived in caves they were a force to be reckoned with.
The atlatl allowed man to kill the largest of animal.
If a tiger stuck his nose in the cave of a stone aged man, there would be meat on the fire and baby Og would have a new blanket.

(You've obviously never eaten cat...)

Ahhh but you forget, Aeroman: there's a strong and natural desire to be part of a larger, chanting group. It suggests communal correctness and safety in thinking, and to step outside of that is to challenge the status-quo. You remember, perhaps, the late '50s, when Elvis' music was considered of Satan? Nowadays, it's pretty durned calm. But it disturbed the social mores and norms of the day, as science has done for the past 100 years, with measurable success, I might add.

Originally Posted by Lamplight

I don't believe because I can't believe. Or I should say, I can't make myself believe in any of the gods I've read or heard about, because to me they simply aren't believable.

So well said LL. Our disbelief is held against us, and yet, how can others come to some faked conclusion just on it's face? I simply cannot swallow tripe that's gone "off". To do so is to invite mental "food poisoning". And so far, even with hundreds of devout Christian posters here on C-D, there's been nothing even vaguely convincing otherwise.

That being said, I certainly don't think it's impossible that there may be some sort of being who started this ball rolling. But I think if that's the case, this being would more than likely just be something of nature we don't yet understand, instead of something supernatural or magic.

Mystic, you listening? Huzzah! I'm not alone!

And just because I don't think it's impossible, that doesn't mean I think it's at all likely. [rflmn: see "plausibility"] And if I'm wrong, oh well. Would a reasonable god prefer I try to lie to myself and others and pretend I believe? If so this god must have the disposition of a two year old.

Agreed. A harshly judgmental God who adamantly insists on absolute faith, but won't bother to provide even an iota of evidence.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

Why do you say it is harsh, merely because it does not support your beliefs? Gee that is kinda harsh in itself, and quite closed minded. Doesn't your cult also say that judgment is left only to your deity, yet you judge me then state you are a christian.

Picture yourself in the position of a primitive man crouched in the dark with absolute no concept of why we have night and day, listening to the predators of the night as they hunt and see what solution your fears may drive to invent.

Fear invented all the deities, and fear allows them to control those that refuse to reason like puppets.

What you said WAS harsh, but that's ok....I can take it. And you're still being pretty judgmental yourself. I remember you and I know you have a severe dislike of all Christians so that's ok too. Christianity itself is not a cult.....although there are plenty of cults within it. I don't believe is such crazy things as "cavemen".....we were created, not evolved so that answers your one question.

Did you really "hear" what I said before? All of the hostility in the world cannot change the fact that one day all will kneel before God and worship Him.....all will be saved!! That's what I'm trying to tell you....even if you don't believe now, you will. And you'll love it.

[catman]

And you know this how? Because you are a god yourself and know everything? Ha! I've 'tried it' and didn't love it, like many here. Ilene Wright, you are leaning Wrong on this one.

Pascal's Wager is a crock. If there were an omniscient god, it would see right through it and give the wagerer no credit.

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

What you said WAS harsh, but that's ok....I can take it. And you're still being pretty judgmental yourself. I remember you and I know you have a severe dislike of all Christians so that's ok too. Christianity itself is not a cult.....although there are plenty of cults within it. I don't believe is such crazy things as "cavemen".....we were created, not evolved so that answers your one question.

I have no problems with christians, or followers of any other religion. BUT I do have a great deal of dislike for the organizations they belong to, as organized religion is directly responsible for the vast majority of suffering by man at the hands of man on this planet, and has been so since the invention of religion.

All of the scientific evidence, fossils, carbon dating, discovery of primitive encampments, drawings in caves must be really annoying in your mind. In my mind such a stance is simply utter nonsense, and denial of an insurmountable amount of actual evidence of evolution. Like it or not, we are both a monkey's aunt or uncle.

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Did you really "hear" what I said before? All of the hostility in the world cannot change the fact that one day all will kneel before God and worship Him.....all will be saved!! That's what I'm trying to tell you....even if you don't believe now, you will. And you'll love it.

That is your belief, and it is ONLY a belief, shared by many I agree, but without even the slightest thread of evidence to support it. There is not a stray or errant synapse in my brain that can even in it's wildest delusion even consider the possibility of such a deity, and every day science discovers more and more evidence of the earth, and the universe to further support my position.